Stalin's Last Gamble: Third World War in 1950

Surely, you mean MacArthur, right?

Cheers, sure, who else would be the Grossest Feldherr Aller Zeiten - All American version in 1950? :D

In 1950 prior to the Korean War the US had a garrison in Japan with one weak corps of infantry on paper, but with limited and obsolete equipment.

For GroFAZ there's a number of tempting targets, such as Kuriles to block up any possibility of Soviet sub campaign, Kamchatka etc... Historically much of the equipment used by US and UN forces in Korea was repaired, or even produced, in Japan, providing the boost for Japanese industries. Japanese industrial production in 1950 was back to 1936 levels, although not back to wartime levels.

Neither would an American general be so suicidal as to propose rearming Japan on the grand scale less than a decade after Pearl Harbor, even assuming Japan was agreeable to risking several more Hiroshimas so soon.

Except, historically, the US did just this. SCAJAP organisation, already in existence prior to Korean War, provided much of the sealift for Korean campaign, Japanese manned much of the US minesweepers and after start of the Korean War an auxiliary police organisation, which had equipment like tanks, was formed. As for other measures, historically the US filled up ground formations during Korean War with KATUSA program, ie. enlisting SK Army personnel to serve in US ranks. As for the ultimate results of policies in this TL, the AmiGroFAZ won't be concerned, he's the Man of Destiny. What others may see as difficulties, he sees as opportunities on the march towards glory.

What's this about an evacuation of the Korean Penninsula?

Evacuation of US personnel and presumably some others was designated general war task for US 7th Fleet, IIRC, far before Korean War. Without US and international help the SK ability to resist a NK invasion would be, well, minimal. If you read my posts, you could see that obviously Korean War would not be permitted to start prior to general war.
 
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i read this TL not bad, but some Problems

reasion for War you got alot in 1950
Stalin wanted West Berlin see 1948 Berlin blockade.
and there also Korea War in 1950
mabye Stalin had idea: so long the USA Fight in Korea, they distracted from Western Europe...


to Aircombat in begin 1950
the surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles technolgie of USA & USSR were still in development.
First surface-to-air missile deployed by the Soviet Union was the S-25 in year 1956 !
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/s25.htm
so machine guns gona be used like aircombat of WW2

all wat the Soviet Union has is
Jet Fighter 1200-1300 Mig-15, 118 Lavochkin La-15, 430 Yak-17.
Bomber: about 847 Tu-40, handfull of Tu-14, Ilyushin Il-28. all for high alitute raid
no support fighter for long rage.

wat has NATO ?
Jet Fighter about 554-2506 F-86 Sabre, 7524 F-84 Thunderjet, 927 P-80 Shooting Star
Bombers: about 3970 B-29, 300? B-50, about 83 B-36. all in high alitute raid, with speed of 636 km/h
(Mig-17 made 850 km/h in high alitute)
the US Bomber need support Fighter from Nato Bases in west Europe.

source Wiki
 

burmafrd

Banned
Wiki is not a good source to use if you want credibility. Its a good debate which gets more scorn= WIki or History Channel. Now if the article has a good number of links that you can check out then use them- but you need to put them in your post.
 
Wiki is not a good source to use if you want credibility. Its a good debate which gets more scorn= WIki or History Channel. Now if the article has a good number of links that you can check out then use them- but you need to put them in your post.

i know that
but in some inof like number of Aircraft bulid they quite right
the rest of info of surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles
are from Astronautix
 
but in some inof like number of Aircraft bulid they quite right the rest of info of surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles are from Astronautix

I do agree with you that nowadays Wiki is quite good - as long as you remember to check out which sources it's using. After all, no one is writing his /her PhD in this site :)

For the number of aircraft, you've looked at whole Western production runs. By the end of the 1950 final F-86A's were being delivered and production of F-84E's was still going on. Vast majority of produced Sabres and Thunderjets were made after Korean War started, as these planes formed the basis of not only USAF, but also allied air force strength. As for SAM's, first SAM was US Nike Ajax, which in OTL was deployed in Spring 1954.

If Korean War was meant to distract Western attention, it failed. More troops went into Germany than Korea.
 
Just been reading this time line, and I have to say I've enjoyed it so far, it's been the first to grab my attention in months, well done.

You seem like a very knowledgeable fellow.
 
Thanks for comments and critics, here's the next part:


13. SAC learns and continues


21 August 1950

As the day continued the realities of casualties for SAC in it's Sunday Punch were discovered by commander of SAC, Curtis Le May, co-ordinating the SAC effort from RAF Fairford. Casualties had been grave. Reasons for this yet unknown. Results from the raids unknown. Something to be done, soon.

Curtis Le May had one advantage in this effort. He had been through this before. He had led the Regensburg-Schweinfurt raid himself and seen the B-17's shot down. He had insisted upon new bombing strategy when he was the commander of XX Bomber Command and ordered the dramatic modifications for the bombers.

The pressure to mount further effort was enormous. Politicians and men of the street alike were talking about extermination of communists like vermin. Aside from this empty talk, President Truman was pressing strongly for further raids in rapid succession. The strategic bombing campaign was the only offensive means available for NATO and the alliance was crumbling. Denmark had surrendered, the Netherlands was to be declared open country tomorrow, Belgium, France and Italy were no doubt thinking about negotiations with Soviet Union. Privately General Vandenberg, C-o-s USAF, had told the most vital information; Churchill had told Truman that the British Cabinet would not passively wait for another Soviet atomic raid. A neutral Britain might not be off the cards.

Vandenberg had told even more disturbing news; the Sixth Fleet would be tasked with full-scale retardation strike next night against Soviet logistical centers in Eastern Europe. If the strike was succesful and the SAC follow-up raid was not, the USAF would face far more grave threat than Soviet Union; an unholy Army-Navy alliance demanding strategic tasking to be withdrawn from USAF. In worst case aviation would be put to same tasks as in the First World War, basically working as substitute for artillery in Army support. Le May knew this would be wrong course, after all, strategic bombing had decimated Germany and Japan and it would, after time, annihilate Communism. This war, too, would be long. Without strategic bombing it would be even longer.

Le May set himself to the task; new tactics and approaches would have to developed and, even more importantly, disseminated. All this would have to be made within three days, mostly over strenuos radio links as SAC forces were scattered in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, Cairo, Egypt and a multitude of British bases. At same time the results from additional target reconnaissance should be analyzed, provided it would be forthcoming as casualties for RB-29's had been heavy.
 
Regarding the initial bombardment of CONUS, how much of it was under radar survelliance at that time? And how many fighters were availiable in CONUS at that time?
 
14. US Sixth Fleet goes atomic

21 August 1950

Onboard three massive CVB's, USS Franklin D. Roosevelt, USS Coral Sea and USS Midway the US Navy's nuclear strike force, Composite Squdron 5, or VC-5, was being prepared for its mission. With difference to USAF operations the US Navy pilots had no institutional illusions about survivability of unescorted mass of bombers flying in medium altitudes. The carrier wings included far too many pilots who had flown in the Pacific War shooting down masses of Japanese Betty bombers. The USN approach would be different and ironically they would learn from the Japanese during the final days of Pacific War. The best tactics to overcome sophisticated air defense system would be flying in low, real low, under radar coverage.

The bombers carrying Mk-4 atomic bombs were a lot smaller than USAF B-29's and B-50's. They were specially configured P2V3-C Neptunes. Neptune was originally built for patrol bomber duties, flying low in difficult weather. The ability would be used to it's fullest using the terrain of South-East Europe to mask the approach.

Each carried had four Neptunes onboard, which had been loaded aboard together with atomic bombs in Port Lyauteau, French North Africa. The take-off was a spectacular sight, as Neptunes could take off only with help of JATO-bottles.

Each plane travelled individually toward it's target. The mission profile was to fly transition over sea in medium altitude, conserving fuel, and to start low-level flight over Italy or Yugoslavia. Depending on terrain and maps available, the planes would fly as low as possible towards their targets. Although Neptune was slow, it had tremendous endurance which made fuel economy by flying in medium altitudes unnecessesary. The most dangerous part of the mission would be the climb-up before dropping the bomb, as it was not yet possible to "toss" the bomb or use "lay-down" delivery with current atomic bombs. To enhance chance of survival the bombs were configured to have 8kT's of explosive power each and were set to explode in very low altitude.

To ensure maximum political effect, good targeting reconnaissance, lack of comprehensive air defense as well as keeping the Soviet satellites out of the atomic raids the targets were situated in Austria and Western Germany. In Austria the four targets were in mountain passes leading to Northern Italy. Targets in Germany were railyards situated in Eastern Germany.

The mission went surprisingly well. One bomber went missing, one had to turn back, one did not find either primary or secondary target but altogether nine bombers delivered their atomic payloads into targets. Europe saw yet more artificial sunrises, this time during dead of the night. Civilian casualties were either Austrian or German, for whom virtually no one in Western Europe or USA cared about. Strike planes were followed in close succession by bomb damage assesment planes as the evaluation of success or failure of this mission would figure heavily on NATO Council meeting scheduled to be held on 22 August in Fontainebleau.

Their mission completed, the surviving bombers landed in the morning of 22 August to Gardermoen Air Station, in Norway, for refuelling before flying back to Port Lyauteau in anticipation of the next operation.
 
Apparently the Americans have had a brainfart and forgot they have the A-1 Skyraider? AFAIK it's nuclear-capable.

Better even, it can carry about as much ordnance as your vaunted Tu-4's at 8 000 lbs and has a range of + 2000 km.
A carrier anywhere in the Med could easily launch Skyraiders which could bomb Sevastopol or Kiev on a one-way mission.

Carriers in the Eastern Med could safely attack targets in Southern Russia with impunity, probably with the Skyraiders having enough range to make it back to either Turkey (NATO member from '52 onwards) or even the carriers themselves.
 
OK OK I have a problem with scenario dates sometimes. Did the same on another thread.

I was actually alive during this period you know. From this distance 1950 feels like 1952 or even 1957.

:D
 
Well, I do enjoy this TL. I have nor probelm with incorporating "They had insane luck at the start" into the concept.

But you know, back then the Winter War was hardly much futher in their past than 9/11 is in ours. Which is why I see the Finns as hard to control.
 
Apparently the Americans have had a brainfart and forgot they have the A-1 Skyraider? AFAIK it's nuclear-capable.

Well, while Skyraider was already in service, it was only after introduction of Mk-7 bombs in 1952 that it was possible to use it as a nuclear delivery aircraft.
 
But you know, back then the Winter War was hardly much futher in their past than 9/11 is in ours. Which is why I see the Finns as hard to control.

It might seem so, but already in 1944 Finnish forces were employed against Germans as demanded by peace treaty. In 1948 the Agreement of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance was signed between Finland and Soviet Union, which was a military treaty. As for the options, in 1950 the Finnish armed forces were practically nil and Soviet Union had a powerful base, Porkkala, close to Helsinki. On the other hand, Finland would have been extremely important territory for Soviet air defense. Thus I see no options available for Finnish political leadership at the time. However, in the longer run there may be surprises...
 
Well, while Skyraider was already in service, it was only after introduction of Mk-7 bombs in 1952 that it was possible to use it as a nuclear delivery aircraft.

And how is that a problem?
Don't you also have the Soviets using nukes in amounts they didn't have IRL on airplanes that don't have the range or the capacity? :D

As I earlier mentioned, lack of a Korean war will only make the Allies focus more on nukes.

Besides, the difference in size between a Mk 6 and a Mk 7 bomb is close to zero, apart from the retractable fins on the Mk 7 which should be fixable.
http://www.strategic-air-command.com/weapons/nuclear_bomb_chart.htm

The Mark 6 is in regular service from 1951 onwards. I'm sure something could be arranged to have at least a single Skyraider try a bombingrun with an experimental version in 1950.

Regarding the Finns;
I can't imagine them taking up arms again. Unless there's really no other option, they're going to stay out of this before Helsinki get's nuked.
 
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