STALIN's AGGRESSIVE PLAN in 1941

Next you'll say is that David Irving is right in regards to the Holocaust.


next you'll say that you never make duplicate posts :D

It's funny, before I even finished reading his first post I just knew that Cheshire was gonna get banned, dunno what it was, but something about his post just gave me the impression that he was gonna get banned.
 
I note no one answered his last post regarding Soviet dispositions prior to the German invasion.

Perhaps it's because folks had already dealt with his earlier posts regarding Soviet dispositions back on the first two pages?

Not sure why anybody here would want to have to answer his last post on page 3 since he obviously wasn't actually willing to discuss anything and only resorted to personal attacks after people countered his arguments.

Although Cheshire Cat is not a fan of John Erickson - in his book The Road to Stalingrad, he makes clear that list of Stalin's demands that Molotov gave were only two weeks from Hitler's decision for war against the Soviet Union (se p.40)..

Yup, because Hitler was always an honest bloke and only ever had intentions regarding the USSR ("Russia") after Molotov made a counterproposal for the Soviets to join the Axis....;)

Really though, what does that have to do with anything? Hitler's Germany had plans for Czechoslovakia since before Munich in 1938 yet that didn't stop him from having the Munich conference and coming to an agreement. So why should the lack of an agreement mean that he planned for war as a result of that lack of an agreement/Molotov's demands? Plus it would seem incredibly coincidental that his desires in Mein Kampf from 1925 just happened to fit with his plans as a result of Molotov's counterproposal.
 
But the list of Soviet aggressions you list only happened BECAUSE of the Nazi - Allies clash, freeing up the USSR to act on its revanchist ambitions.

And also to put as much distance as possible between Axis territory and the Russian heartland. Which proved to be a critically good decision.
 
And also to put as much distance as possible between Axis territory and the Russian heartland. Which proved to be a critically good decision.
Debatable, considering leaving the defensive Molotov Line, allowing Soviet troops to be encircled in Poland in 1941 as well as fueling German war industry for three years.
 
Debatable, considering leaving the defensive Molotov Line, allowing Soviet troops to be encircled in Poland in 1941 as well as fueling German war industry for three years.

On the other hand, with Moscow a lot of it was the exact timing of the seasons. The Autumn slowed the Germans and so let Soviet troops be transferred from the Far East, and then winter hit them just as the Siberians did. But your arguments have merit too.

I really have no settled convictions on the matter. I get a bit of a disconnect when I try to ask whether civilisation was saved by the carving up and abolition of helpless nations, bleeding heart that I am.

It's funny that we should be discussing this, since I went to see Antony Beevor today. I was thinking of getting his explanation of just hwo insane CC is, but it was a long and fast queue for the signings. I felt a bit of a twat having brought my older books, so I kept it short.
 
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Well, Hitler attacking the Soviets helped because then any Nazi-Soviet alliance went out the window, and if that happens, we where f*cked.
I just hope i don't get banned for this.....:eek:
 
Yup, because Hitler was always an honest bloke and only ever had intentions regarding the USSR ("Russia") after Molotov made a counterproposal for the Soviets to join the Axis....;)

Really though, what does that have to do with anything? Hitler's Germany had plans for Czechoslovakia since before Munich in 1938 yet that didn't stop him from having the Munich conference and coming to an agreement. So why should the lack of an agreement mean that he planned for war as a result of that lack of an agreement/Molotov's demands? Plus it would seem incredibly coincidental that his desires in Mein Kampf from 1925 just happened to fit with his plans as a result of Molotov's counterproposal.

Wow, Molotov made the proposal for the USSR to join the Axis!! Source please?
According to Milton Shulman in 'Defeat in the west' (p.88):
By late 1940 Hitler had not made up his mind which was more - the final elimination of Britain or war with Russia. That Russia would eventually have to be dealt with was a desision that he had already taken. But he was not certain as to whether an offensive in the East should be attempted while Englan was still resisting. Hitler had become suspicious of Russia's intentions during the visit of molotov to Berlinin November1940. At that conference, claims goering, Hitler had been disturbed by the russian Foreign minister's talk of Russian aims in the Dardanelles and the possibility of an attack on roumania from Bessarabia. The Fuhrer also felt that since britain had not capitulated dispite the fact she was now alone, she must have some secret agreement with Russia.
Guderian in Panzer Leader (p.141):
In Berlin Molotov made the following claims:
1. Finland was to be regarded as belonging within the Soviet sphere of influence.
2. An agreement was to be made concerning the future of Poland.
3. Soviet interests in Rumania and Bulgaria must be recognised.
4. Soviet interests in the Dardanelles must be acknowledged.
After molotov had returned to moscow the Russians restated these demands, in more precise form in writing.
hitler was highly incensed by the russian claims and expressed his displeasure at lengthe during the Berlin conversations, while simply ignoring the subsequent Russian note. The conclusion he drew from Molotov's visit and its results was a belief that war withthe Soviet Union must sooner or later be inevetable.
And, Erickson (p.39) in discussing German troops in Roumania:
Ribbentrop, however, dangled a bait, that of a 'natural political coalition', one which 'if intelligently managed' could serve 'the best advantage' of the powers concerned. These powers read off as Germany, Italy, Japan and the Soviet Union. A 'delimitation of their interests' on 'a world-wide scale'. issues of 'decisive importance'. needed high-level discussion.
 
Wow, Molotov made the proposal for the USSR to join the Axis!! Source please?
According to Milton Shulman in 'Defeat in the west' (p.88):
By late 1940 Hitler had not made up his mind which was more - the final elimination of Britain or war with Russia. That Russia would eventually have to be dealt with was a desision that he had already taken. But he was not certain as to whether an offensive in the East should be attempted while Englan was still resisting. Hitler had become suspicious of Russia's intentions during the visit of molotov to Berlinin November1940. At that conference, claims goering, Hitler had been disturbed by the russian Foreign minister's talk of Russian aims in the Dardanelles and the possibility of an attack on roumania from Bessarabia. The Fuhrer also felt that since britain had not capitulated dispite the fact she was now alone, she must have some secret agreement with Russia.
Guderian in Panzer Leader (p.141):
In Berlin Molotov made the following claims:
1. Finland was to be regarded as belonging within the Soviet sphere of influence.
2. An agreement was to be made concerning the future of Poland.
3. Soviet interests in Rumania and Bulgaria must be recognised.
4. Soviet interests in the Dardanelles must be acknowledged.
After molotov had returned to moscow the Russians restated these demands, in more precise form in writing.
hitler was highly incensed by the russian claims and expressed his displeasure at lengthe during the Berlin conversations, while simply ignoring the subsequent Russian note. The conclusion he drew from Molotov's visit and its results was a belief that war withthe Soviet Union must sooner or later be inevetable.
And, Erickson (p.39) in discussing German troops in Roumania:
Ribbentrop, however, dangled a bait, that of a 'natural political coalition', one which 'if intelligently managed' could serve 'the best advantage' of the powers concerned. These powers read off as Germany, Italy, Japan and the Soviet Union. A 'delimitation of their interests' on 'a world-wide scale'. issues of 'decisive importance'. needed high-level discussion.


You know what is funny? All or most of that stuff you are quoting can be easily found at the heavily sourced wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Axis_talks

But somehow you've never come across anything about how "The offer came concurrently with massive German-favorable economic offers. [78] The Soviets promised, by May 11, 1941 the delivery of 2.5 million tons of grain—1 million tons above its current obligations.[79] They also promised full compensation for the Volksdeutsche property claims.[79]"

By the way, you may want to read a person's post carefully before saying things like "Wow, Molotov made the proposal for the USSR to join the Axis!! Source please?". At no point did I say that Molotov made the proposal that the USSR join the Axis. I said counterproposal which means that a proposal was already made and not by the party making the counterproposal. Ribbentropp gave the first proposed draft agreement after a rather lengthy bit of discussions (involving lots of intrigue) between the Soviets and the Germans about cooperation since the Non-Aggression Pact.

What's even stranger is that anyone would think something like that would somehow be the sole reason for Hitler wanting to invade the Soviet Union. Surely everything he said and believed up to that point in 1940 was just hot air and not even remotely indicative of intent and everything that occurred afterwards was merely coincidental. Definitely it could be one of the reasons Hitler would use to justify an invasion and probably to be a reason for him to consider invading the Soviet Union sooner rather than later but I don't see the point in blowing it all out of proportions, especially when talking about someone as eccentric (to be kind) as Hitler.

Psst! Guys! He's been kicked, no need to debate his positions!:)

Grimm, you are spot on here. I will second this. No point coming back to this thread again except for a few laughs at the parodies made. :)
 
Why do I always miss the fun trolls? :(

At least you don't argue that USSR took Berlin and captured half of Europe, thanks for that.

soviet-flag-raised-above-the-reichstag2.jpg


Nope, no Soviets in Berlin!
 

Grin

Banned


In 1940, German troops occupied Channel Islands: Jersey, Guernsey and a number of smaller. These islands belong to Britain, but they lie not far from France. Even with the Guernsey, the most distant of them, in good weather seen French bank. From the military point of view it was necessary to invade the islands, but in terms of politics - no. The capture of the islands meant that for the first time in a thousand years of British history the enemy is trampling British Islands. Rage of a noble British overflowed them with a such force that it would be better for Hitler never do so. The capture of the islands meant that peace with Britain is impossible. British would not forgive any of their leader attempts to negotiate with Hitler until the German soldiers on the ground of Britain. But Hitler could not take away his troops from these islands because of the prestige.

27 May, 1941 a British fleet sunk the most powerful German battleship «Bismarck». It's only 1600 people crew, of whom 110 are in captivity, while the rest died. Not too many people, yes, but battleship - it is 50 thousand tons of the best steel. Because this steel could be used to build 2500 the most powerful German tanks at the time - Pz-IVD, fighting weight - 20 tons. And if you do not take the costs of steel and other materials, but cost of energy, time and labor, the construction of a battleship like this would cost more than to build 5000 tanks. Thus, the loss of battleship, if you take on people who died - is the loss of one regiment. And if you estimate value - a loss of several full-tank armies. One «Bismarck» worth more than all the tanks, which Hitler had in 1941. Therefore let us not say that the war between Britain and Germany in 1941 is subsided.
On questioning 17 June, 1945 gross admiral K. Denitsa shown: ‘The death of “Bismarck” put an end to offensive activities of the German heavy ships in the Atlantic’.
In addition to the war at sea between Germany and Britain was fierce air war. In 1940, German aircraft dropped to the British city of 36 844 tons of bombs. That was not enough to ensure that Britain surrendered. But this was enough to awaken the British cold fury. In the same year, Britain has responded: 14 631 tons of bombs - in the German city. German air force was not enough to stop the British air offensive. In 1941, Germany poured in Britain 21 858 tons, and Britain responded - 35 509 tons
(P. Briekhill. The Dam Busters. London, 1951. P. 47, 117, 166, 249).

The war in the air from Germany demanded huge costs.

The first consequence of the British night bombing raids was the fact that millions of Germans had spent the nights in shelters and in the morning went to work sleepy and angry. The second consequence was the destruction of residential areas and industrial sites with significant side effects. Third - to combat the British had to divert substantial forces. Albert Speer expressed it as: «Ten thousands of guns, rather than fighting in the East, looked to the sky». These guns devoured huge quantities of ammunition. In addition, half of the German aircrafts were used to continue the air war against Britain.

In 1941, British industry has released 20 100 aircraft. And 2400 was received from the United States. But German industry has released 11 030. But there is an aircraft and aircraft. One thing is to build a plane for one person with one motor, another thing - four strategic bombers. Britain has built strategic bombers, and many of them. Germany built none.
In the future, the war in the air has not promised anything joyful to Germany.

And tell me guys why on the earth Hitler would make suicidal decision to open biggest ever second east front? Lands in the Eeast? Mhhhhh…
Or do you think the Germans withdrew mass bombing in May of 1941 from Britain just because they decided that there was enough misery for this poor island (while Britain was still able to pay back Germany by bombing Berlin) and why not open second front against the Soviets and have some fun on two fronts instead of one?

gl
 

Grin

Banned
I'm sure you know that the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly on July 3, 2009 passed a resolution comparing Stalinism and Nazism. The resolution calls for August 23 to be made a Day of Memory of Victims of Stalinism and Nazism.
The parliament of the pan-European security body passed a resolution equating the roles of the USSR and Nazi Germany in starting World War II, and condemning the so-called Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, a non-aggression treaty signed on 23 August 1939 between Germany and what was the Soviet Union at the time.
The resolution would make August 23 a day of remembrance for victims of Stalinism and Nazism. That's the day in 1939 that Germany and the Soviet Union signed a pact carving up Eastern Europe between them. World War II started just over a week later.


On August 23, 1939, Germany and the Soviet Union signed an agreement in Moscow about the destruction of the Polish state and the division of the Polish territories. Poland had mutual assistance agreements with France and the United Kingdom and, therefore, the attack by the Soviet Union and Germany automatically led to a European-and hence world-war. Indeed, in eight days, on September 1, 1939, World War II broke out. It was a direct and unavoidable result of the agreement reached in Moscow.
The USSR-Germany agreement is traditionally called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. This moniker misleads and does not truly reflect the essence of what happened. The pact that was signed in Moscow was a plot between Hitler and Stalin to conduct an aggressive war in Europe together. Therefore, that agreement in effect was a Stalin-Hitler pact. Furthermore, in international practice it is much more common to use not the names of the statesmen that concluded the agreement , but the place where the documents were signed: the Munich Agreements, the Warsaw Pact, the Baghdad Pact, and the Geneva Agreement. Therefore, in accordance with common diplomatic practice, the more precise name of the pact would be the 1939 Moscow Agreement of the Start of World War II. Both parties received approximately equivalent shares – part of Poland went to Hitler, the other part went to Stalin. However, just eight days after signing the Moscow pact, Stalin violated it. Hitler started a war of aggression against Poland with hope that his ally Stalin would do the same. But Stalin cheated Hitler.
On September 1 and in the subsequent two weeks the Soviet troops stood next to the Polish borders without conducting warfare and crossing the borders. The explanation of the Soviet government to the German counterpart was: the time has not come yet for action by the Red Army. As a result, the entire fault for the beginning of the war fell upon Germany, upon Hitler and his entourage. They entered world history as the chief and only cause of World War II.
Poland was divided not in the Imperial Chancellery, but in the Kremlin. Hitler was not present, Stalin was. But Hitler is at fault for the starting of the war, while Stalin is not. Stalin entered history as an innocent victim and the liberator of Europe.
The invasion of the German troops into Poland had other consequences too: on September 3, 1939, Great Britain and France declared war on Germany. Already on the third day Germany was involved in a two-front war; that is, it wound up in an unwinnable situation. Since Germany practically lacked strategic raw materials, the two-front war was fatal for Germany.
Lack of raw materials not only prohibited Germany from conducting a two-front war, but also a prolonged single-front war. The only hope was for blitzkrieg – instant defeat of the opponent. France could be defeated in a lightning war, but Great Britain is an island nation. To defeat Britain, long and serious preparation is needed, as well as a powerful navy that is equal to or exceeds the British navy. German air power was insufficient to crush British industry and achieve air superiority. Therefore, on the third day the war already looked long and unpromising for Germany.
In a prolonged war against Britain and her allies, Hitler would inevitably exhaust his resources. In September 1939, the Germany government repeatedly reminded the government of the USSR about their obligation and demanded the Red Army’s invasion of Poland according to the agreement. The Soviet government would refuse – not right away, but with a two- to three-day delay. For example, in response to the German demarche of September 3, Molotov responded on September 5: “We agree with you that concrete action has to be taken at an appropriate time. However, we consider that such a time has not come yet. It is possible that we are mistaken, but it appears to us that excessive haste could cause us harm and facilitate unification among our enemies.”
The German government kept repeating its demands and kept getting refused. Red Army units started military action in Poland only after two and a half weeks – September 17. Stalin’s troops committed similar, or maybe even worse, atrocities in Poland, but Great Britain and France did not declare war on the Soviet Union. Great Britain, France and their allies were interested in preventing Germany from using Soviet strategic resources. To do so, it was necessary to keep Stalin at their side at any cost and, in case of war between Germany and the Soviet Union, to keep the Red Army from being defeated.
As a result of the pact signed in Moscow in 1939 Stalin achieved a war, one which he desired and for which he had planned and prepared for a long time: The nations of Western Europe were mired in a destructive war, but the Soviet Union remained neutral. Now Stalin could wait for the total exhaustion and self-destruction of Central and Western Europe. Hitler guessed Stalin’s intentions and in 1941 suddenly and almost fatally struck the Soviet Union. In this critical situation, Stalin received free aid from the United States and Great Britain, which in volume and quality did not have a historical precedent. At the same time, the Soviet role in unleashing World War II was quickly and thoroughly forgotten. In the final count, Poland for whose freedom the Western European states had entered World War II, did not gain its freedom, but was given, along with all of Central Europe and part of Germany, into Stalin’s control.
It is customary to consider Britain and France among the victors. However, this is clearly a mistake. The purpose for which Great Britain and France entered World War II was ensuring Poland’s independence. This aim was not achieved as a result of the war; therefore, there is no cause to celebrate victory.
As a final result of the Moscow pact, Hitler committed suicide and Stalin became the unbound Red ruler of a huge anti-Western empire, created with the West’s help. At the same time, Stalin managed to keep his reputation of a naïve, trustful simpleton, and Hitler entered history as a duplicitous villain. It is accepted that Stalin was ‘not ready’ for war, but Hitler was ‘ready’.
But the one who wins the war is the one who prepares for war by dividing his enemies and making them fight each other, not the one who makes loud pronouncements.

 

Pinging the bot... testing, testing, 1, 2, 3...

I do like the article it cut and pasted, though. "Because Hitler was a warmongering maniac who invaded countries at every turn, and Stalin was cautious and conservative, people unjustly see Hitler as a warmongering maniac who invaded countries at every turn, and Stalin as cautious and conservative." Funny how that works.
 
Pinging the bot... testing, testing, 1, 2, 3...

I do like the article it cut and pasted, though. "Because Hitler was a warmongering maniac who invaded countries at every turn, and Stalin was cautious and conservative, people unjustly see Hitler as a warmongering maniac who invaded countries at every turn, and Stalin as cautious and conservative." Funny how that works.

How long before this Grin fades into nothingness?
 

Grin

Banned
Special Archive of the USSR, fund 7, index 1, document 1223.
Published in the December 1994, issue of Noviy Mir.
Excerpts from Stalin’s speech at the conclusion of a pact regarding invasion from August 19, 1939: “If we accept Germany’s proposal about the conclusion of a pact regarding invasion, she will of course attack Poland, and France and England’s involvement in this war will be inevitable. Western Europe will subjected to serious disorders and disturbances. Under these conditions, we will have many chances to stay on the sidelines of the conflict, and we will be able to count our advantageous entrance into the war. . . It is in the interest of the USSR – the motherland of workers – that he war unfolds between the Reich and the capitalist Anglo-French block. It is necessary to do everything within our powers to make this war last as long as possible, in order to exhaust the two sides. It is precisely for this reason that we must agree to signing the pact, proposed by Germany, and work on making this war, once declared, last a maximum amount of time”
 
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