STALIN's AGGRESSIVE PLAN in 1941

I think that Hitler, defending himself from the USSR and launching preventive war in some way had saved western civilization.

1939 Partition of Poland between Stalin and Hitler
1939 – 1940 Successful offensive war against Japan and Finland
1940 Aggression against six neutral
European states — Poland, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Romania
1941 Preparation for an aggression on a massive scale
More than five million of regular Red Army troops were deployed near the west frontier (not mentioning 1000000 of paratroopers). Also two dozen of thousands of advanced tanks and aircrafts, the best in the world artillery were ready to ‘liberate’ Europe, thereby to paint all Europe red color.
But Hitler had launched his surprise attack and disturbed Stalin’s plan to conquer Europe. Anyway, Stalin did his best to take at least half of Europe at the end of the WWII.


By 1941 USSR had biggest army and the best armaments ever, including more than 23000 of tanks and 18000 aircrafts, 60000 of cannons, while no army in the world didn’t have anything like that even in their military dreams at that moment.

Hitler simply had no choice at that moment whether attack USSR or not, because he knew very well that the Soviets were preparing offensive operation on eastern borders with dense concentration in south, not far from the Germans only oil in Romania.
But the scale of this preparation made by communists to “liberate” Europe he appreciated much later.
So, if it wasn’t for the Soviets and their aggressive plans Britain would have been strangled by the Germans (just question of time). And at the same time if it wasn’t for the preventive attack on USSR whole Europe would have been painted RED. And there was nothing they could do about it.

"Only naive people believe that the chief task of fortified zones is defence. This is not so. Fortified zones are built so that an offensive may be prepared in greater security. They must also securely conceal the deployment of groupings of shock troops, repel any enemy attempt to disrupt their deployment, and support our troops with all possible fire power when they go over to the offensive. "
Major-General PIOTR GRIGORENKO
(Memoirs, New York 1981, p. 141
 
You are actually quoting discredited SOVIET sources

The most recent research says that Stalin was planning no such thing, and that the Nazi-Soviet Pact could easily have been stabilised - it was Hitler's refusal to agree to this that scuppered things, not any wish of Stalin's

Of course, the USSR was rearming, and carrying out exercises - it was the middle of a European war, and their ally was an ideological enemy. But the list of Soviet aggressions you list only happened BECAUSE of the Nazi - Allies clash, freeing up the USSR to act on its revanchist ambitions

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
You are actually quoting discredited SOVIET sources

Actually, other way round.
The goal of communist propaganda was to conceal the role of the Soviet Union in the initiation of WWII. For this purpose Russians were forced to play fools: tanks are obsolete, airplanes – the coffins, the army – decapitated.

You read monumental works of western historians based on propaganda regarding peaceful intentions that have always been priority of Soviets, fed to them - in deceitful and mocking memoirs of red generals and communist historians - by Soviet Union and now Russian Federation, when at the same time the most of the archives of that period still being kept in strict secrete, with some of them, officially, to be kept secret for centuries, doesn't it arrive to your head that you should ask why some western historians are sharing communist’s view on the past.
No wonder why majority of people on this forum keep repeating what have been said, written and spread around the world by communists with only one reason - to cover up crimes.


On 17 June 1945, a group of Soviet military investigators were interrogating some senior Nazi military leaders. In the course of his interrogation, Field-Marshal Keitel maintained that

“all the preparatory measures we took before spring 1941 were defensive measures against the contingency of a possible attack by the Red Army. Thus the entire war in the East, to a known degree, may be termed a preventive war . . . We decided ...to forestall an attack by Soviet Russia and to destroy its armed forces with a surprise attack. By spring 1941, I had formed the definite opinion that the heavy buildup of Russian troops, and their attack on Germany which would follow, would place us, in both economic and strategic terms, in an exceptionally critical situation . . . Our attack was the immediate consequence of this threat .”

Colonel-General Alfred Jodl, the main author of the German military plans, adopted the same stance. The Soviet investigators did their best to force Keitel and Jodl out of their postures, but did not succeed. Keitel and Jodl did not change their testimony and, along with the principal war criminals, were sentenced to be hanged by the international tribunal at Nuremberg. One of the main accusations against them was 'the unleashing of an unprovoked aggressive war' against the Soviet Union
 
Oh fuck, I'm fed up of having to continually go back to sources and back up this argument time and again

People will believe what they want

Why should I care ?!
 
Amusingly, the idea that the Soviets were preparing for a pre-emptive strike originates as one of the Nazi propoganda myths they used at the time of the invasion.


You got confused. Soviets were preparing not pre-emptive, but offensive operation on massive scale.

On June 21, 1941, Hitler wrote a letter Mussolini: “Russia is trying to destroy the Romanian oil fields… The task for our armies is eliminating this threat as soon as possible.” Herein lies the cause of Hitler’s attack. This was not at all a struggle for Lebensraum(living space)


Nuremberg trials
Wednesday, 4 April 1946

Morning Session
Defendant KEITEL

DR. NELT`E: Was it never actually discussed that if one wanted to launch an attack on the Soviet Union, one would previously have to take diplomatic steps or else send a declaration of war, or an ultimatum?
KEITEL: Oh, yes, I discussed that. As early as the winter of 1940-1941, whenever there were discussions regarding the strength of the Russian forces on the demarcation line, that is, in December-January, I asked Hitler to send a note to the Soviet Union so as to bring about a cleaning-up of the situation, if I may express it so. I can add now that the first time he said nothing at all, and the second time he refused, maintaining that it was useless, since he would only receive the answer that this was an internal affair and that it was none of our business, or something like that. At any rate, he refused. I tried again, at a later stage, that is to say I voiced the request that an ultimatum should be presented before we entered upon an action, so that in some form the basis would be created for a preventive war, as we called it, for an attack.
DR. NELTE: You say "preventive war." When the final decisions were made, what was the military situation?
KEITEL: I am best reminded of how we, or rather the Army judged the situation, by a study or memorandum. I believe it is Document 872-PS, dated the end of January or the beginning of February, a report made by the Chief of the General Staff of the Army to Hitler on the state of operative and strategic preparations. And in this document I found the information we then had on the strength of the Red Army and other existing information known to us, which is dealt with fully in this document.
Apart from that, I have to say too that the intelligence service of the OKW, Admiral Canaris, placed at my disposal or at the Army's disposal very little material because the Russian area was closely sealed against German intelligence. In other words, there were gaps up to a certain point. Only the things contained in Document 872-PS were known.
DR. NELTE: Would you like to say briefly what it contained, so as to justify your decision?
KEITEL: Yes, there were -- Halder reported that there were 150 divisions of the Soviet Union deployed along the line of demarcation. Then there were aerial photographs of a large number of airdromes. In short, there was a degree of preparedness on the part of Soviet Russia, which could at any time lead to military action. Only the actual fighting later made it clear just how far the enemy had been prepared. I must say, that we fully realized all these things only during the actual attack.


 
Cheshire Cat, complete nonsense involving imaginary statistics.

Even the Nazis reject the figures you presented for Soviet troop, tanks and aircraft and who would know better than the ones COUNTING the enemy troops killed or captured and enemy tanks/aircraft destroyed or taken?

It's also false that the Soviets were more heavily concentrated in the south than in the main areas of the German/Axis advance, just as it is a lie that the German invasion was a defensive move in any way, shape or form.

There was no war between Japan and the USSR in 1939-1940 and JAPAN was the aggressor in 1938, as the Japanese themselves never denied. Although they resented learning that armor, or the lack thereof, was liable to affect how battles ended.

Lastly, each of the six nations attacked by the Soviets in Europe was done in cooperation with Nazi Germany, indeed, with the full approval of the Nazis, a small detail you somehow failed to note.



So, with no evidence provided to support your claims, your position is correctly rejected as historically worthless.
 
Cheshire Cat, complete nonsense involving imaginary statistics.

Even the Nazis reject the figures you presented for Soviet troop, tanks and aircraft and who would know better than the ones COUNTING the enemy troops killed or captured and enemy tanks/aircraft destroyed or taken?

It's also false that the Soviets were more heavily concentrated in the south than in the main areas of the German/Axis advance, just as it is a lie that the German invasion was a defensive move in any way, shape or form.

There was no war between Japan and the USSR in 1939-1940 and JAPAN was the aggressor in 1938, as the Japanese themselves never denied. Although they resented learning that armor, or the lack thereof, was liable to affect how battles ended.

Lastly, each of the six nations attacked by the Soviets in Europe was done in cooperation with Nazi Germany, indeed, with the full approval of the Nazis, a small detail you somehow failed to note.



So, with no evidence provided to support your claims, your position is correctly rejected as historically worthless.


You are an idiot

The Battle of Khalkhyn Gol was the decisive engagement of the undeclared Soviet-Japanese Border War, or Japanese-Soviet War, fought between the Soviet Union, Mongolia and the Empire of Japan in 1939.

At the beginning of August 1939, G. K. Zhukov was preparing his surprise strike against the Japanese.

Khalkhin-Gol was the first lighting war of the twentieth century; it was blitzkrieg in the purest form. It was the first time in history that large masses of tanks were used correctly: to strike in depth. This was the prime example of unseen concentration of artillery in tight areas of front. It was an example of absolute surprise attack-during the first hour and half of battle, the Japanese artillery did not fire a single shot and not a single Japanese plane rose into the air

All you saing is complete rubbish. There was never approval of Nazis regarding those states. Nonsense.


read next freak

Nuremberg trials:

DR. HORN: Is it correct that on 15 June 1940, after the delivery of an ultimatum, the Russians occupied the whole of Lithuania, including the part which was still German, without notifying the Reich government?
VON RIBBENTROP: There was no special agreement concerning this, but it is well known that these areas were actually occupied.
DR. HORN: What further Russian measures caused Hitler anxiety as to Russia's attitude and intentions?
VON RIBBENTROP: Various things made the Fuehrer a little sceptical about the Russian attitude. One was the occupation of the Baltic States, which I have just mentioned. Another was the occupation of Bessarabia and North Bukovina after the French campaign and of which we were simply informed without any previous consultation. The King of Romania asked us for advice at that time. The Fuehrer, out of loyalty to the Soviet pact, advised the King of Romania to accept the Russian demands and to evacuate Bessarabia.
In addition, the war with Finland in 1940 caused a certain uneasiness in Germany, among the German people who had strong sympathies for the Finns. The Fuehrer felt himself bound to take this into account to some extent. There were two other points to consider. One was that the Fuehrer received a report on certain communist propaganda in German factories which alleged that the Russian trade delegation was the center of this propaganda. Above all, we heard of military preparations being made by Russia. I know after the French campaign he spoke to me about this matter on several occasions and said that approximately 20 German divisions had been concentrated near the East Prussian border; and that very large forces -- I happen to remember the number, I think about 30 army corps -- were said to be concentrated in Bessarabia. The Fuehrer was perturbed by these reports and asked me to watch the situation closely. He even said that in all probability the 1939 Pact had been concluded for the sole purpose of being able to dictate economic and political conditions to us. In any case, he now proposed to take countermeasures. I pointed out the danger of preventive wars to the Fuehrer, but the Fuehrer said that German-Italian interests must come first in all circumstances, if necessary. I said I hoped that matters would not go so far and that, at all events, we should make every effort through diplomatic channels to avoid this.


Nuremberg trials
5 June 46

DR. EXNER: According to the reports received, how did the military situation develop in the East after the Polish campaign?
JODL: When we first contacted the Russians in the Polish campaign, relations were rather cool. We were carefully prevented from gaining any information about their troops or equipment. There were constantly unpleasant incidents on the San. The Russians shot at everything, at fleeing Poles or at German soldiers, and there were wounded and dead; and the demarcation line was flown over in numerous cases. The unusually strong forces employed by Russia for the occupation of the Baltic states, of Poland and Bessarabia struck us from the very beginning.
DR. EXNER: Did the reports which you received contain indications of military reinforcements for the Red Army?

JODL: From maps which were submitted every few days, which were based on intelligence reports and information from the radio interception section, the following picture was formed: In the summer of 1940 there were about 100 Russian divisions along the border. In January 1941, there were already 150 divisions; and these were indicated by number, consequently the reports were reliable. In comparison with this strength, I may add that the English-American-French forces operating from France against Germany never, to my knowledge, amounted to 100 divisions.
 
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Even the Nazis reject the figures you presented for Soviet troop, tanks and aircraft and who would know better than the ones COUNTING the enemy troops killed or captured and enemy tanks/aircraft destroyed or taken?
.

I see that you absolutley parallel to the real history.

Many German generals realized that Red Army, according to the results of the fighting in Finland, was assessed incorrectly. During the Battle of Stalingrad, Goering had publicly declared that the war the Soviet Union had launched against Finland was “perhaps one of the biggest cover-ups in world history.” Goering believed that Stalin deliberately “sent to Finland a few divisions, equipped with obsolete weaponry, in order to hide the creation by the Soviet Union of an unprecedented war machine” (The Winter War, 1939-40, 1: 367).
In closed circles, Hitler himself admitted the mistake. This occurred on April 12, 1942. Hitler said the following: “The entire war with Finland in 1940, just as the Russian advance into Poland with obsolete tanks and weapons and poorly clothed soldiers, was nothing other than a grandiose disinformation campaign, because Russia at that time controlled arms which made it, in comparison with Germany and Japan, a world power.” He also said, on June 22, 1942: “Back home in Russia, they created an extremely powerful military industry…. and the more we find out what goes on in Russia, the more we rejoice that we delivered the decisive blow in time. The Red Army’s weaponry is the best proof they succeeded in reaching extremely high achievements.” (Piker, Hitler’s Table Talks, 205)

 
I think that Hitler, defending himself from the USSR and launching preventive war in some way had saved western civilization.

"We had to destroy western civilisation IN ORDER TO SAVE IT!"

Not a good first impression, dude.

1939 Partition of Poland between Stalin and Hitler

Precipitaed by Hitler.

1939 – 1940 Successful offensive war against Japan and Finland

Japan was the agressor. Also, "succesful"? That's a discredit to the Finns. Sure, they lost when you get down to the result, but the Soviets had wasted ludicrous resources trying to squash a tiny countryy with little military-industrial capacity. This wasn't exactly going to encourage wanton aggression on their part.

1940 Aggression against six neutral
European states — Poland, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Romania

As others have noted, this would have been impossible without the Nazis and their mad designs.

1941 Preparation for an aggression on a massive scale
More than five million of regular Red Army troops were deployed near the west frontier (not mentioning 1000000 of paratroopers). Also two dozen of thousands of advanced tanks and aircrafts, the best in the world artillery were ready to ‘liberate’ Europe, thereby to paint all Europe red color.

Thoroughly discredited by just about everything that's relevant.

But Hitler had launched his surprise attack and disturbed Stalin’s plan to conquer Europe. Anyway, Stalin did his best to take at least half of Europe at the end of the WWII.

As opposed to just stopping when he reached the 1938 frontier, which obviously have been the sound military decision. :rolleyes:

Stalin could have taken more if the western allies had been more dawdling, but he urged them on. He wanted to win the war as quickly and cheaply as possible and keep the spoils, not conquer Europe.

By 1941 USSR had biggest army and the best armaments ever, including more than 23000 of tanks and 18000 aircrafts, 60000 of cannons, while no army in the world didn’t have anything like that even in their military dreams at that moment.


This is all unsourced, and also you appear to have missed that quantity is not quality. A lot of the Soviet arsenals were obsolete. One of their main heavy tanks was a slab-sided rust-bucket.

Hitler simply had no choice at that moment whether attack USSR or not, because he knew very well that the Soviets were preparing offensive operation on eastern borders with dense concentration in south, not far from the Germans only oil in Romania.

This is unsourced and soundingly worryingly like an attempt to excuse Hitler his crimes. I revile communism but like anyone who earnestly does I've gained a lot of sympathy for the people of Russia in studying it. You cannot possibly try and let the nazis off the hook for planning to enslave or murder millions of people.

But the scale of this preparation made by communists to “liberate” Europe he appreciated much later.
So, if it wasn’t for the Soviets and their aggressive plans Britain would have been strangled by the Germans (just question of time).


Oh, ignorant underestimation of Britain, too. Joy!

*wraps flag sing land hope glory tommy gun barricades fight on the beaches yada yada yada I think you've heard this*

And at the same time if it wasn’t for the preventive attack on USSR whole Europe would have been painted RED. And there was nothing they could do about it.

Except invade Russia and murder millions of helpless people, obviously. They could do that.

"Only naive people believe that the chief task of fortified zones is defence. This is not so. Fortified zones are built so that an offensive may be prepared in greater security. They must also securely conceal the deployment of groupings of shock troops, repel any enemy attempt to disrupt their deployment, and support our troops with all possible fire power when they go over to the offensive. "
Major-General PIOTR GRIGORENKO
(Memoirs, New York 1981, p. 141

But he's not saying the only task of fortified positions is offensive. Having established a new frontier with a nation which, despite your temporary co-operation, ideological wants to kill you all, are you supposed to not build fortifications in order to better defend yourself?
 

The Hitler - Mannerheim Conversation, recording was made in secrete.

Hitler: ...a very serious danger, perhaps the most serious one - it's whole extent we can only now judge. We did not ourselves understand - just how strong this state [the USSR] was armed.

Mannerheim: No, we hadn't thought of this.

Hitler: No, I too, no.

Mannerheim: During the Winter War - during the Winter War we had not even thought of this. Of course...

Hitler: (Interrupting) Yes.

Mannerheim: But so, how they - in reality - and now there is no doubt all they had - what they had in their stocks!

Hitler: Absolutely, This is - they had the most immense armaments that, uh, people could imagine. Well - if somebody had told me that a country - with...(Hitler is interrupted by the sound of a door opening and closing.) If somebody had told me a nation could start with 35,000 tanks, then I'd have said: "You are crazy!"

Mannerheim: Thirty-five?

Hitler: Thirty-five thousand tanks.

Another Voice In Background: Thirty-five thousand! Yes!

Hitler: We have destroyed - right now - more than 34,000 tanks. If someone had told me this, I'd have said: "You!" If you are one of my generals had stated that any nation has 35,000 tanks I'd have said: "You, my good sir, you see everything twice or ten times. You are crazy; you see ghosts." This I would have deemed possible. I told you earlier we found factories, one of them at Kramatorskaja, for example, Two years ago there were just a couple hundred [tanks]. We didn't know anything. Today, there is a tank plant, where - during the first shift a little more than 30,000, and 'round the clock a little more than 60,000, workers would have labored - a single tank plant! A gigantic factory! Masses of workers who certainly, lived like animals and...

Another Voice In Background: (Interrupting) In the Donets area?

Hitler: In the Donets area. (Background noises from the rattling of cups and plates over the exchange.)

Mannerheim: Well, if you keep in mind they had almost 20 years, almost 25 years of - freedom to arm themselves...

Hitler: (Interrupting quietly) It was unbelievable.

Mannerheim: And everything - everything spent on armament.

Hitler: Only on armament.

Mannerheim: Only on armament!

Hitler: (Sighs) Only - well, it is - as I told your president [Ryte] before - I had no idea of it. If I had an idea - then I would have been even more difficult for me, but I would have taken the decision [to invade] anyhow, because - there was no other possibility. It was - certain, already in the winter of '39/ '40, that the war had to begin. I had only this nightmare - but there is even more! Because a war on two fronts - would have been impossible - that would have broken us. Today, we see more clearly - than we saw at that time - it would have broken us. And my whole - I originally wanted to - already in the fall of '39 I wanted to conduct the campaign in the west - on the continuously bad weather we experienced hindered us.

Our whole armament - you know, was - is a pure good weather armament. It is very capable, very good, but it is unfortunately just a good-weather armament. We have seen this in the war. Our weapons naturally were made for the west, and we all thought, and this was true 'till that time, uh, it was the opinion from the earliest times: you cannot wage war in winter. And we too, have, the German tanks, they weren't tested, for example, to prepare them for winter war. Instead we conducted trials to prove it was impossible to wage war in winter. That is a different starting point [than the Soviet's]. In the fall of 1939 we always faced the question. I desperately wanted to attack, and I firmly believed we could finish France in six weeks.

However, we faced the question of whether we could move at all - it was raining continuously. And I know the French area myself very well and I too could not ignore the opinions, of many of my generals that, we - probably - would not have had the élan, that our tank arm would not have been, effective, that our air force could not been effective from our airfields because of the rain.

I know northern France myself. You know, I served in the Great War for four years. And - so the delay happened. If I had in '39 eliminated France, then world history would have changed. But I had to wait 'till 1940, and unfortunately it wasn't possible before May. Only on the 10th of May was the first nice day - and on the 10th of May I immediately attacked. I gave the order to attack on the 10th on the 8th. And - then we had to, conduct this huge transfer of our divisions from the west to the east.

First the occupation of - then we had the task in Norway - at the same time we faced - I can frankly say it today - a grave misfortune, namely the - weakness of, Italy. Because of - first, the situation in North Africa, then, second, because of the situation in Albania and Greece - a very big misfortune. We had to help. This meant for us, with one small stoke, first - the splitting of our air force, splitting our tank force, while at the same time we were preparing, the, tank arm in the east. We had to hand over - with one stroke, two divisions, two whole divisions and a third was then added - and we had to replace continuous, very severe, losses there. It was - bloody fighting in the desert.

This all naturally was inevitable, you see. I had a conversation with Molotov [Soviet Minister] at that time, and it was absolutely certain that Molotov departed with the decision to begin a war, and I dismissed the decision to begin a war, and I dismissed him with the decision to - impossible, to forestall him. There was - this was the only - because the demands that man brought up were clearly aimed to rule, Europe in the end. (Practically whispering here.) Then I have him - not publicly...(fades out).

Already in the fall of 1940 we continuously faced the question, uh: shall we, consider a break up [in relations with the USSR]? At that time, I advised the Finnish government, to - negotiate and, to gain time and, to act dilatory in this matter - because I always feared - that Russia suddenly would attack Romania in the late fall - and occupy the petroleum wells, and we would have not been ready in the late fall of 1940. If Russia indeed had taken Romanian petroleum wells, than Germany would have been lost. It would have required - just 60 Russian divisions to handle that matter.

In Romania we had of course - at that time - no major units. The Romanian government had turned to us only recently - and what we did have there was laughable. They only had to occupy the petroleum wells. Of course, with our weapons I could not start a, war in September or October. That was out of the question. Naturally, the transfer to the east wasn't that far advanced yet. Of course, the units first had to reconsolidate in the west. First the armaments had to be taken care of because we too had - yes, we also had losses in our campaign in the west. It would have been impossible to attack - before the spring of 19, 41. And if the Russians at that time - in the fall of 1940 - had occupied Romania - taken the petroleum wells, then we would have been, helpless in 1941.

Another Voice In Background: Without petroleum...

Hitler: (Interrupting) We had huge German production: however, the demands of the air force, our Panzer divisions - they are really huge. It is level of consumption that surpasses the imagination. And without the addition of four to five million tons of Romanian petroleum, we could not have fought the war - and would have had to let it be - and that was my big worry. Therefore I aspired to, bridge the period of negotiations 'till we would be strong enough to, counter those extortive demands [from Moscow] because - those demands were simply naked extortion's. They were extortion's. The Russians knew we were tied up in the west. They could really extort everything from us. Only when Molotov visited - then - I told him frankly that the demands, their numerous demands, weren't acceptable to us. With that the negotiations came to an abrupt end that same morning.

There were four topics. The one topic that, involved Finland was, the, freedom to protect themselves from the Finnish threat, he said. [I said] You do not want to tell me Finland threatens you! But he said: "In Finland it is - they who take action against the, friends, of the Soviet Union. They would [take action] against [our] society, against us - they would continuously, persecute us and, a great power cannot be threatened by a minor country."

I said: "Your, existence isn't threatened by Finland! That is, you don't mean to tell me..."

Mannerheim: (Interrupting) Laughable!

Hitler: "...that your existence is threatened by Finland?" Well [he said] there was a moral - threat being made against a great power, and what Finland was doing, that was a moral - a threat to their moral existence. Then I told him we would not accept a further war in the Baltic area as passive spectators. In reply he asked me how we viewed our position in, Romania. You know, we had given them a guarantee. [He wanted to know] if that guarantee was directed against Russia as well? And that time I told him: "I don't think it is directed at you, because I don't think you have the intention of attacking Romania. You have always stated that Bessarabia is yours, but that you have - never stated that you want to attack Romania!"

"Yes," he told me, but he wanted to know more precisely if this guarantee...(A door opens and the recording ends.)

 
I see that you absolutley parallel to the real history.

Many German generals realized that Red Army, according to the results of the fighting in Finland, was assessed incorrectly. During the Battle of Stalingrad, Goering had publicly declared that the war the Soviet Union had launched against Finland was “perhaps one of the biggest cover-ups in world history.” Goering believed that Stalin deliberately “sent to Finland a few divisions, equipped with obsolete weaponry, in order to hide the creation by the Soviet Union of an unprecedented war machine” (The Winter War, 1939-40, 1: 367).
In closed circles, Hitler himself admitted the mistake. This occurred on April 12, 1942. Hitler said the following: “The entire war with Finland in 1940, just as the Russian advance into Poland with obsolete tanks and weapons and poorly clothed soldiers, was nothing other than a grandiose disinformation campaign, because Russia at that time controlled arms which made it, in comparison with Germany and Japan, a world power.” He also said, on June 22, 1942: “Back home in Russia, they created an extremely powerful military industry…. and the more we find out what goes on in Russia, the more we rejoice that we delivered the decisive blow in time. The Red Army’s weaponry is the best proof they succeeded in reaching extremely high achievements.” (Piker, Hitler’s Table Talks, 205)

And of course Stalingrad WAS A TRAP!

Damn you, Stalin, you tactical-strategic genius who wields great armies effortlessly as tools to refashion the world in your image! That you could make a mistake or have an obsolete armed force is inconcievable!

Seriously, if the Soviet were just pretending to have a shit obsolete military, what happened in 1941? Were they all asleep? Occam's razor tells us that the Soviets actually were in a bad way (what with how they'd murdered or imprisoned large parts of their talent and everything) and knocked themselves togather hen it was that or die.

What the conversation above amounts to is basically "Holy crap, I've invaded a country witha quite frankly ridiculous industrial capacity without really thinking very hard about the decision. Whoops."

Your own argument that Hitler had to murder thousands of people in order to save them is rather undercut by this exchange in which Hitler makes clear that he had vastly underestimated the Russians. He expected easy victory and lebensraum galore.
 
LOL, Mr Cat I do like how you are supporting your arguments with the unimpeachable source of Keitel, Ribbentrop and Goering ! You might want to remember that at Nuremburg each man was on trial for his life charged with starting an aggressive war ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
You are an idiot

Hi and welcome to the forums. I'm in a good mood today so am not going to report you to the site admin, who would most likely frown on the way you have started throwing insults around. If you want to remain on AH.com, I suggest you learn to disagree with people politely using reasoned arguments, rather than resort to calling people idiots.
 
Bear in mind that in the war SU had used only 15% of prewar capacity of Ministry of Ammunition. The rest had been lost at the begging of war. By sudden blow strike Hitler destroyed not only regular divisions of Red Army and aircrafts, not only grasped the strategic reserves, but also has captured territories on which there were the newest factories of the Ministry of Ammunition. When retreating, the Red Army destroyed its own plants, or just abandoned them.
Something was shipped. But try to move at least one blast furnace thousands of kilometers. Try to take away at least one thousand tons of shells from the border forest, load them into cars and take out under fire.

In the initial period of war Red Army lost not only 500000 tons of ordnance, but also the industry that could produce new shells. In the border areas the Red Army lost 25 000 wagons with shells.

From August to November 1941, German troops captured 303 Soviet factories producing powder, bullets, shells, and had an annual output - 101 million shell casings, 32 million artillery mines casings, 24 million shells of bombs, 61 million shell casings, 30 million hand grenades, 93 600 tons of powder, 36000 tons of trotyl. This was 85 per cent of all facilities of Ministry of the ammunition. In addition to it, in the shell factories were concentrated strategic reserves of precious commodities: calico, brass, alloyed steel. All of this was taken by Germans and used against the Red Army.


But the Stalin’s pre-war potential was so huge, that he was able to build during the war a new industry of munitions beyond the Volga and the Urals, in Siberia, and to produce all, that later was brought down on the German army.

Hitler struck Stalin a sudden blow, and Stalin had been beating back with 15 percent of capacity of the Ministry of Ammunition. The results of the war are known. Try to imagine what could happen if Hitler delayed to blow and fell under Stalin's crushing blow. In this case, Stalin would have used in the war not 15 per cent of capacity, but all 100%. What would have been the outcome of the Second World War?
In 1942 the Red Army secretly prepared and conducted Stalingrad’s counteroffensive. Some are saying that since then the Soviet Union became a superpower. But only someone who does not know the true extent of Stalin's preparations for war can say it. Yes, Stalingrad - the famous operation, it was attended by masses of infantry, aviation, artillery and tanks. It was conducted by true masters of strategy. But Stalingrad is nothing in comparison with what had been prepared in 1941.


Stalingrad - it is mostly reservists. This is improvisation. In 1941 was prepared almost the same tactic, but with regular Red Army (5000000) and millions of reservists.

Stalingrad counteroffensive - it is fifteen hundred tanks.
In 1941, only in the first echelon, there were ten times more. And quality? In 1941, Soviet troops had more T-34 and KV tanks, than they had under Stalingrad.

Stalingrad - it is a sudden flank attack of two groups. And in 1941 was prepared the same, with exception of that flank groups have been immeasurably more powerful, and dangerously close to Berlin. Stalingrad – it is Zhukov, Rokossovsky, Vasilevsky, Malinovsky, Vatutin. In 1941, these generals prepared operation, which was carried out by them under Stalingrad.

The Soviet Union was a superpower in 1941. During the summer of 1941 Hitler broke that superpower by a sudden jab. All that, used by Stalin in the war under Stalingrad and Kursk, Moscow and Berlin - is only the fragments and remnants of the original Soviet power.
 
Grey Wolf, I Blame Communism, I have to wonder if he bothers to read what he posts.

He claims it was a brilliant deception by the Soviets to use only weak and poorly equipped forces in eastern Poland AND refers to German concerns as to the massive and extremely powerful Soviet forces in eastern Poland.

He thinks any report of the final battle of the Soviet-Japanese border war proves Soviet aggression. An intelligent person would note the crushing Japanese defeat followed by no territorial changes and realize the aggressor lost the war.

He is apparently in complete denial as to Hitler's treaty with Stalin and the terms for the partition of Eastern Europe, with Finland, the Baltic States, eastern Poland and Bessarabia assigned to Stalin.

And the only evidence he has on his side is a series of comments by convicted war criminals.

:rolleyes:
 
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