Stalingrad:If Germany could winb in this way?

Hello,

this is my first Post and i like this forum and as my special interest in history this is a great forum . And Alternative History is really Great.

So now i want make my point of view from my historic knowledge on the Fall Blue and the Stalingrad battle to make it alternative mor poitiv end for germany.

As the sixt army divided into Staligrad Attacker and Kaukasus Attackers all the Special Forces of the Wafffen-SS( Das Reich, Wiking) gone to kaukasus
and the Axis Troops stayed in Line for Stalingrad.

What if the special Forces of the Waffen-SS with their special Spirit and Equipment joint the Attack on Stalingrad would this have a positiv impact on the result(German Occupation, Win of WW2 in east./ as it have in my opinion.)

And this Waffen-SS Storm soldiers are trained too for house fighting.

Please tell your opinions on ths alternate Battle on Stalingrad.
 
Hello and welcome.

That said...

Hm, more likely Nazi Germany's best troops have just been wasted in the meatgrinder of house to house fighting. What special equipment did they have, submachineguns and assault guns? Didn't all the Nazi forces have those?

But then I fail to see how the Nazis winning is a 'positive impact' on anything...:eek:
 
Well, I have not been here a LOOONG time, but I'm back now. I dunno how it is now here, but I think this topic has been done maaany, maany times.
Still, Stalingrad loss would be a major blow the USSR. They could now cut off the Union's oil supplies and the USSR would NOT be in a pretty position. However, I doubt (and I'm quie the Germanwanker) that the Nazis would win WW2, even in the East.
P.S.- lol at "positive impact".
 
IMO, the tide had already turned. Hitlers idiocy had already ruined any hope of Germany succeeding. Its a true testimony that even great tactical leadership, and exceptional generals, can be trumped by a ass-goblin. (Pardon my French)......
 
Hello,

Yes this SS Troops had special Maschine Guns and so and they are special trained to in inhouse fighting i think. And they proof this too in the recapture of charkov.

So if this Troops make the last 150 meters clear to the wolga and the other wehrmacht troops hold the flanks. than it will be different.Or?
No lost of the 6. Army.

Whats your opinions. Thanks
 
Hi there, Braindead (great name by the way :)).

If I understand you correctly, you are wondering if massing the Waffen SS divisions at Stalingrad would have made a difference to the outcome?

Well, at the time of Case Blue, the Waffen SS fielded 8 divisions; 4 motorised infantry divisions with limited organic armour, 2 mountain divisions, a cavalry division and a second-rate infantry division (the Polizei division).

While Waffen SS units generally demonstrated great zeal in combat, their actual combat performance wasn’t always better than equally equipped army units and their gung ho attitude often led to increased casualties. They did tend to be somewhat overstrength compared to army units, mostly because the Waffen SS did not have army level units (e.g. army and corps assets which were normally assigned to divisions for specific operations). In short, they were excellent troops, comparable with the best, but hardly supermen.

As to Stalingrad, the motorized units would not have made much difference IMO. Their strength lay in manoeuvre warfare and city fighting would have negated their specialist training and equipment. The cavalry division would also have been out of its element in Stalingrad. By the way, Waffen SS troops were not specially trained in city fighting, nor were any other troops in any army during WWII. As per their specialist duties, the SS troopers might for instance be trained as infantry, panzergrenadier or cavalry trooper but not street fighting. Only experience (or experienced trainers) could provide some insight in city fighting.

The mountain divisions might actually have done quite well however. They were trained to operate in self-supporting battle groups with organic, man-portable artillery in rough terrain with limited fields of fire. Their mountain training might well have been suited to city fighting.

But would it have been enough to conquer Stalingrad? No! After holding off the initial onslaught, the Russians were feeding in just enough troops to keep the Germans from capturing the entire city while they built up their forces for the counterattack which would eventually trap the entire Sixth Army and parts of the Fourth Panzer Army. If the Germans had exerted more pressure, the Russians would ‘simply’ have deployed more troops to hold Stalingrad.

Only a change in strategy would have changed the outcome at Stalingrad.
 
As the sixt army divided into Staligrad Attacker and Kaukasus Attackers all the Special Forces of the Wafffen-SS( Das Reich, Wiking) gone to kaukasus
and the Axis Troops stayed in Line for Stalingrad.

Not quite. "LSSAH" and "Das Reich" were withdrawn from front in summer of 1942 to be refitted as armored divisions an d their massive losses made good. "Totenkopf" was withdrawn from front due to losses suffered at Demyansk pocket (which was in the north so nowhere near area of summer offensive). "Wiking" was in the Caucasus. "Polizei" division was in the north as well (considered second rate anyway). "Nord" was reconstructed as mountain division in early 1942 and was later fighting in far north with Finns (also not considered that good initially but that can be attributed to conditions it worked under). "Prinz Eugen", another mountain division, was just formed (march 1942) an d was meant for anti-partisan duties anyway (armed with captured and second-rate weapons). "Florian Geyer" was cavalry unit used for anti-partisan duties. Rest weren't raised yet.

So out of entire W-SS force only "Wiking" was available for actions at Stalingrad. And while they were good one division can hardly turn the tide in such battle. Rest were either second rate so on par with average Heer unit or worse and "LSSAH" and "Das Reich" were not capable of operating as divisions due to losses.
 
although it might have been interesting if some nazi fanatic had decided that the waffen ss would do a better job than the heer in stalingrad and so it replaced 6th army - only for what happened to the 6th army instead happens to the waffen ss

what would happen if the entirety of the waffen ss was wiped out at stalingrad? that probably would be a more positive result on the whole as the heer was less inclined to commit atrocities, although they still did
 
although it might have been interesting if some nazi fanatic had decided that the waffen ss would do a better job than the heer in stalingrad and so it replaced 6th army - only for what happened to the 6th army instead happens to the waffen ss

what would happen if the entirety of the waffen ss was wiped out at stalingrad? that probably would be a more positive result on the whole as the heer was less inclined to commit atrocities, although they still did

as i said earlier by the time of Stalingrad W-SS was composed of 8 divisions. 3 of them were not combat capable due to losses (and those were some of the best ones). 2 were raised for anti-partisan warfare, 2 were in the north and didn't perform that well. Which means ether only "Wiking" is sent there to suffer the fate of 6th army or "Polizei" and "Nord" are moved south where they don't perform that well.
 
well, yes, but they were called divisions and hitler had a tenancy to ignore little facts like a divisions actual combat capability, especially later on in the war. it's not totally ASB to have him do this at Stalingrad
 
hello,

just to ask:

What if Wiking, LSSAH, das Reich and Totenkopf stayed on the southern front as it once was( as they recaptured Charkov, Too by a little house fighting.).

Could this change the outcome(cause the 6th army reached stalingrad in summer time.) and that will give this spiritual fighters the chance to get thru to the wolga before this winter shit.

And in my opinion they performed good in OTL.

I am opend for your opinions.
 
hello,

just to ask:

What if Wiking, LSSAH, das Reich and Totenkopf stayed on the southern front as it once was( as they recaptured Charkov, Too by a little house fighting.).

Could this change the outcome(cause the 6th army reached stalingrad in summer time.) and that will give this spiritual fighters the chance to get thru to the wolga before this winter shit.

And in my opinion they performed good in OTL.

I am opend for your opinions.

Braindead, would you mind using a spell checker? It comes with your text programme and would really help improve your posts as they are a bit garbled.

Now, to your question. You seem to buy in the ubermensch myth of the Waffen SS soldier, so let me make this as clear as I can. Out of the 8 available divisions, 4 are motorized infantry and two are either cavalry or second rate security troops. They are not ideally suited to city fighting at Stalingrad. You mention the performance of the SS Panzerkorps at Kharkov. Are you equally aware that they suffered extremely heavy casualties there when they disobeyed orders and engaged in a frontal attack to recapture the place instead of outflanking it and then taking from weakened Russian forces it as Manstein wanted? And that came after a period of refitting in the West when they were upgraded from motorized infantry divisions into fully fledged panzergrenadier divisions. In mid 1942, they would not have had the same fighting power they fielded in early 1943.

Secondly, the Sixth Army and the Fourth Panzer Army were more than capable of capturing Stalingrad in the early stages of Case Blue. Hitler ordered the Fourth Panzer Army to move south and assist the First Panzer Army and it took the bulk of the mobile divisions with it. That would have included your Waffen SS motorized divisions divisions.

As the case was, the First Panzer Army did not need any help and the presence of Fourth Panzer Army only caused massive traffic jams. Meanwhile, the advance of Sixth Army slowed down without the presence of their mobile support. Had those two armies moved against Stalingrad together without distractions, they could easily have captured it before the Russians could have prepared a defense.

The failure at Stalingrad was a failure of strategy, not of the troops. Having better troops would not have made much difference as the extremely close-in fighting negated the basic advantages available to the German troops (superior fire power, better coordination, combined arms tactics, air support etc) and made it a simple soldier's war where the tough Russian soldier was equally able.

As I said in my previous post, the Russians were carefully matching the German strength in Stalingrad. Had the Waffen SS divisions proved more formidable in close assaults, they would have fed in more Russian troops from the reserve being kept near Stalingrad and subsequently used in Uranus.
 
hello,

just to ask:

What if Wiking, LSSAH, das Reich and Totenkopf stayed on the southern front as it once was( as they recaptured Charkov, Too by a little house fighting.).

Could this change the outcome(cause the 6th army reached stalingrad in summer time.) and that will give this spiritual fighters the chance to get thru to the wolga before this winter shit.

And in my opinion they performed good in OTL.

I am opend for your opinions.

LSSAH, "Das Reich" and "Totenkopf" were withdrawn from front because of massive losses suffered in 1941-42 winter fighting. They were understrength and nowhere near capable to act as divisional force. This rebuilding process was used to transform LSSAH and "Das Reich" into armored division and mechanised division respectively. As you are probably aware this takes time so they were simply not available for summer offensive. "Wiking" was only one that could be used for stalingrad but as was said before one division doesn't make much difference, specially due to nature of fighting.

At best Wiking could be used for relief operation as it was motorised (not mechanised though), provided it was ready and available then. But then again keeping such unit in reserve makes little sense when things are going well and once they stop going well they are already committed and as such not immediately available.
 
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