Stalingrad and Caucasus battles, a different outcome
- Thread starter santosza
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Well that is up to the community to decide. Well I will get the ball rolling then, the first idea is to have the Germans pushing further into the theather comabt operation followed by more victories. The German airforce is able to win more battle across the sky and keep the Soviets on the defensive but things start to switch around.
The Soviets throw a good counter-attack with more success but they in tuen will suffer wose as they tryt to over extend themselfs. The Soviets will have to contend with German units playing runabout and a ruined infastructure. Also the Soviets will have to deal with a more letheal german airforce with more flight time on it's books.
The Soviets throw a good counter-attack with more success but they in tuen will suffer wose as they tryt to over extend themselfs. The Soviets will have to contend with German units playing runabout and a ruined infastructure. Also the Soviets will have to deal with a more letheal german airforce with more flight time on it's books.
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Anaxagoras
Banned
If Hitler had allowed the 6th Army to break out of Stalingrad, the Germans could have saved the bulk of their forces, thus putting them in a vastly better position in 1943. And while being chased out of the Caucuses would still be a clear defeat, they would not have suffered the damage to morale and credibility that the surrender at Stalingrad caused.
No doubt there, though that wouldn't be a war winner. I think the Germans lost their only chance really when they failed to capture Moscow in the previous year.
Originally the 6th Army was intended only to Screen the Northern Flank and not be poured into Stalingrad. If you have it so the 6th Army stays on the outskirts and defends the bank of the Volga, possibly all the way to the Caspian you can have the rest of the Caucuses Groups move and eventually capture Baku and the Soviet Oil Fields.
In theory all that needs to be done for this to be accomplished is make it so the 6th army does not enter Stalingrad.
In theory all that needs to be done for this to be accomplished is make it so the 6th army does not enter Stalingrad.
One of the problems was that when they pushed on to the Volga, they left some Soviet bridgeheads on the west bank of the Don, which they needed to clean out, but never did, because they were hell bent on capturing Stalingrad. The Red Army used these bridgeheads to build up their forces for the November offensive.
The best the Wehrmacht could have done, IMHO, was just to lay siege to the City, not waste resources in trying to batter it into submission,[I know why they did] and put more into the Caucuses offensive. Here, it might have been possible to reach the Caspian Sea, capture Astrakhan, maybe even Baku for a short while, but the end result would have been the same, and they would have just had to deal with a longer retreat. Because while all this was happening, Stalin would have still been gathering his forces to the NW of Stalingrad, and the offensive would still have happened and probably succeeded.
Now, I always thought it would be an interesting TL to write about if Von Paulus and his generals simply decided to do the decent and honorable thing; gave Hitler the finger, and broke out of Stalingrad anyway, to link up with Manstein, when he got to within 15 miles of the place, thus saving 90% of the troops. No doubt many would die later on, in other battles, [can the Germans win, or at least tie, at Kursk, with all these extra men?] but if Paulus had done that, Hitler would have gone completely apeshit, the senior officers would have all been shot, unless they were somehow able to slip away to Switzerland or Sweden, and untold thousands would not have lost their sons.
The best the Wehrmacht could have done, IMHO, was just to lay siege to the City, not waste resources in trying to batter it into submission,[I know why they did] and put more into the Caucuses offensive. Here, it might have been possible to reach the Caspian Sea, capture Astrakhan, maybe even Baku for a short while, but the end result would have been the same, and they would have just had to deal with a longer retreat. Because while all this was happening, Stalin would have still been gathering his forces to the NW of Stalingrad, and the offensive would still have happened and probably succeeded.
Now, I always thought it would be an interesting TL to write about if Von Paulus and his generals simply decided to do the decent and honorable thing; gave Hitler the finger, and broke out of Stalingrad anyway, to link up with Manstein, when he got to within 15 miles of the place, thus saving 90% of the troops. No doubt many would die later on, in other battles, [can the Germans win, or at least tie, at Kursk, with all these extra men?] but if Paulus had done that, Hitler would have gone completely apeshit, the senior officers would have all been shot, unless they were somehow able to slip away to Switzerland or Sweden, and untold thousands would not have lost their sons.
Pro-soviet al;ternative: Big Sautrn is reality; most part of German Group "A" shared Paulus's 6th army's fare; Great Patriotic War finished in the 1943 at the Rhein river line
Pro-german: 11th Army is sent to Stalingrad after Crimea, instead of Leningrad. In this case USSR have some chances to relieve Leningrad, but Stalingrad will probably fall. Then there are two variants:
1) USSR began its offenceive 19Nov 1942; 11th and 6th armies are blockaded in Stalingrad
2)11th army protected 6th Army's flanks....What next?
Pro-german: 11th Army is sent to Stalingrad after Crimea, instead of Leningrad. In this case USSR have some chances to relieve Leningrad, but Stalingrad will probably fall. Then there are two variants:
1) USSR began its offenceive 19Nov 1942; 11th and 6th armies are blockaded in Stalingrad
2)11th army protected 6th Army's flanks....What next?
Hmmm ... succeeding in what exactly? Taking the city? That sounds like to me that it would only allow the Soviets to grind up more German manpower and resources and reduce the forces available to create the emergency line after the disaster. (Forget any attempt for Manstein to come help). Do you mean the campaign as a whole? That for me would have to involve German forces not becoming involved in the city/urban meat grinder of Stalingrad. I'll go out on a limb and interpret the statement as you suggestion that campaign is pulled off in an intelligent manner with German forces defeating the Soviet forces outside the city by forcing battles elsewhere. Perhaps a limited 'siege' of Stalingrad but an outcome that ends with German acquisition of the oil fields and more importantly establishing forces across the Volga.
The important factor in grand global change is what Stalin/Soviets due during the 42/43 winter. Stalin had wanted a general attack across the entire front line simultaneously. He only reluctantly agreed to Uranus. In this scenario such an operation probably isn't viable and thus I'm left thinking the Commies have two options. Option 1 being the large 'entire front' offensive or 2 being some type of coordinated attempt to secure or remove the threat of German forces established on the Eastern side of the Volga. The first option might make some gains (especially in the North were resources were pulled for the campaigns in the south) but probably not a breakthrough that would change the entire theatre. The second option seems to force the soviets into some kind of reversal of OTL in which they would be the one on the offensive with German forces digging in waiting for them in Stalingrad. Outside the city itself Soviet forces might make gains, even forcing Axis troops totally off the Eastern Volga bank. I don't see Russian forces capable of forcing a crossing at that time, which leaves the oil, most of the territory, and even probably Stalingrad in the hands of the Germans for 1943. With this situation, it's unlikely that Hitler will foolishly (did he do anything else) waste Germany's last offensive power in the doomed Kursk venture. Those forces are free to any dozen possible options to OKH.
The soviets wanted the Germans to invest heavily in Stalingrad , because A} they knew it would be more of an even war of attrition that the Germans could ill afford, while they could. B} that while they were holding the Germans at bay in Stalingrad, the Soviets could build up forces along the weaker flanks to mount the envelopment maneuver at the arranged time.
Stalin baited Hitler into this meat grinder and this became the standard method for them to defeat Hitler in later years. Germany should not have invested in Stalingrad but adopt the flank guard. 2/3 of the Russian oil came from the Baku area, Even if the Germans are not able to get any fuel out, just by possessing it , they denies the Russians the fuel they need to mount the big offensives of 1943/44.
I wonder if LL could have supplied sufficent fuel to make up the 12-14 million tons a year difference in fuel?
Stalin baited Hitler into this meat grinder and this became the standard method for them to defeat Hitler in later years. Germany should not have invested in Stalingrad but adopt the flank guard. 2/3 of the Russian oil came from the Baku area, Even if the Germans are not able to get any fuel out, just by possessing it , they denies the Russians the fuel they need to mount the big offensives of 1943/44.
I wonder if LL could have supplied sufficent fuel to make up the 12-14 million tons a year difference in fuel?
easier said than done. Ploesti, e.g., was bombed hard several times, and recovered each time.
Also, Baku was not the only field.
Trying to keep enough bombers going to keep all the caucasian oilfields suppressed at the end of the supply line they had would be ... tough.