Stalin dies, and Beria takes over

With regards to Stalin's cult being too ingrained in '40, that's incredibly iffy. A good number of Soviet citizens (possibly a majority, definitely the peasantry) actually hated the guy with a passion.

Once the War started, however, and Soviet citizens began to see the horrors that Nazi rule would bring, they very quickly rallied around Stalin. It was the War and the nationalism that Stalin came to embrace and (rightly or wrongly) embody that became the roots of his cult of personality. Prior to 1941, though, he and his cult (which, again, was mostly urban-based) are on much more unsteady ground.

I'm sorry I do not agree.
Stalin cult begun in '27, and in 40 had had a lot of time to brew.

Regarding soviets citizens hating him, I'm sorry it is not true, too.
Soviets citizens hated Beria (or Ezhov, or whatever), not stalin: they drew a difference between "Him" (Stalin) and "Them" (his subordinates), putting the blame on the latters.
"If only Stalin knew" was an idiomatical phrase repeated by many citizens, even by relatives of his victims (who often believed that the unexplained disappearance of their loved ones would soon be set right, if only they could get word to Stalin)
 

Cook

Banned
I'm sorry I do not agree.
Stalin cult begun in '27, and in 40 had had a lot of time to brew.

Regarding soviets citizens hating him, I'm sorry it is not true, too.
Soviets citizens hated Beria (or Ezhov, or whatever), not stalin: they drew a difference between "Him" (Stalin) and "Them" (his subordinates), putting the blame on the latters.
"If only Stalin knew" was an idiomatical phrase repeated by many citizens, even by relatives of his victims (who often believed that the unexplained disappearance of their loved ones would soon be set right, if only they could get word to Stalin)

I think we’ve covered this issue.

Of course people are going to say; “If only Stalin knew” when they are complaining when to say; “That bloody Stalin’s sending the country to Hell in a Handbasket” was going to result in them getting a one way trip to the gulags and/or a bullet to the back of the head.
 
I think we’ve covered this issue.

Of course people are going to say; “If only Stalin knew” when they are complaining when to say; “That bloody Stalin’s sending the country to Hell in a Handbasket” was going to result in them getting a one way trip to the gulags and/or a bullet to the back of the head.

What I'm trying to say is that many people honestly believed that.
Do you remember the crowd at Stalin funeral?

Sfuneral.jpg
 
Russian resistance to the German invasion was based on love of the Motherland.

Russian propaganda during that invasion period of 1941 emphasises the Motherland, not The Party, and not Comrade Stalin.

Stalin hindered the defence, it’s a miracle Moscow wasn’t taken.

That was certainly Zukhov opinion, and from the technical -military- point of view is probably right (even if some historians are re-evaluating the matter).

But from the psicological side, Stalin figure was a focal point for streghtening the will to resist.

The Rodina could be in the background, but it was Stalin that was in the foreground

SProp.jpg
 

Cook

Banned
What I'm trying to say is that many people honestly believed that.
Do you remember the crowd at Stalin funeral?

Again, if staying home is likely to be reported to the NKVD then yes you are going to brave the cold and attend the funeral, probably with an onion in your pocket to be sure you can cry.
 
Again, if staying home is likely to be reported to the NKVD then yes you are going to brave the cold and attend the funeral, probably with an onion in your pocket to be sure you can cry.

I do not pretend that you trust my words, but you can find a lot of documents on the point, even in Conquest's works (which are certainly not pro-S)
 

Cook

Banned
I do not pretend that you trust my words, but you can find a lot of documents on the point, even in Conquest's works (which are certainly not pro-S)

It’s just that profusions of love for a dictator lack a bit of credibility, especially when his own children hated him.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I'm sorry I do not agree.
Stalin cult begun in '27, and in 40 had had a lot of time to brew.
Regarding soviets citizens hating him, I'm sorry it is not true, too.
Soviets citizens hated Beria (or Ezhov, or whatever), not stalin: they drew a difference between "Him" (Stalin) and "Them" (his subordinates), putting the blame on the latters.
It's really arguable that the Stalin cult started in 1927. What became the Stalin cult only began in the early '30s, and even then it was by and large restricted to Party higher-ups and urban populations. The peasantry (the vast majority of the population) loathed loathed LOATHED Stalin. They saw him as a brutal, bloodthirsty looter and even the Antichrist. Believe me, all of those peasant revolts during collectivization (in which tens of thousands of peasants took up arms against the USSR) were screaming for Stalin's head just as much as they were screaming for Molotov and Kaganovich and Yezhov's.

Oh, and a note on the Yezhov situation. Most people didn't hate him during most of the Purges, either. He actually had a personality cult that in many ways rivaled Stalin's (i.e. sizeable in cities and amongst students and the intelligensia, but almost nonexistant elsewhere). Yezhov only became a demon after he was replaced by Beria in '38 (who Stalin actually brought in to end the purges and the massive bloodlust) and then went on to have most of the blame for the Terror be placed on his shoulders by Stalin...who was always about plausible deniability.

"If only Stalin knew" was an idiomatical phrase repeated by many citizens, even by relatives of his victims (who often believed that the unexplained disappearance of their loved ones would soon be set right, if only they could get word to Stalin)
While Cook already has a good counterpoint to this (mainly that you don't bad-mouth the guy who's repressing you when he could be listening), I would add that most of those who were disappeared were members of the urban working class, which at this time formed the core of the Stalin cult. And again, they were a far cry from the majority of the population.

What I'm trying to say is that many people honestly believed that.
Do you remember the crowd at Stalin funeral?
Okay, this is an important disctinction we've been making. Prior to World War II, the Stalin cult was pretty negligible outside of urban centers and the Party intelligensia and leadership.

His cult didn't really take off until after the War, when he was (rightly or wrongly) seen as the savior of Russia. And since Stalin died after the War, after his cult really had time to expand, the mobs at his funeral weren't at all surprising.

Though we should remember that there were massive mobs at every major Bolshevik's funeral. Huge mobs were, for example, present at Sergo Ordzhonikidze's funeral, and I can tell you that very few run of the mill folks had any idea who the guy was. The just went because a major Communist had died and they were told to go.

But from the psicological side, Stalin figure was a focal point for streghtening the will to resist.
Agreed. On a psychological level, Stalin became very important (and, eventually, indispensable) with regards to Soviet morale

The Rodina could be in the background, but it was Stalin that was in the foreground
Actually, it began in the reverse. Only after Stalingrad did the person of Stalin start to supersede that of the Motherland in the role of importance, and even then he was never that far ahead of the Motherland.

I do not pretend that you trust my words, but you can find a lot of documents on the point, even in Conquest's works (which are certainly not pro-S)
And there are many more that show that Stalin's popularity levels prior to the War were less than spectacular. I'd recommend taking a look at Suny's The Soviet Experiment and The Structure of Soviet History.
 
And there are many more that show that Stalin's popularity levels prior to the War were less than spectacular. I'd recommend taking a look at Suny's The Soviet Experiment and The Structure of Soviet History.

I'm sorry I do not know the author, thus I cannot make a comparison, but I never heard this theory (limited popularity) before.
Mark my word, I am not doubting neither your words nor his theories (since I have not read them it would be silly), just saying that all the works I read on the subjects, including testimonies of people that lived in that period (released much later in a more free country) depicted a different situation.

could you please provide the author name?
googling "suny" i found mainly State University of new York
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I'm sorry I do not know the author, thus I cannot make a comparison, but I never heard this theory (limited popularity) before.
Mark my word, I am not doubting neither your words nor his theories (since I have not read them it would be silly), just saying that all the works I read on the subjects, including testimonies of people that lived in that period (released much later in a more free country) depicted a different situation.
And I don't doubt your words or their testimonies. But you ought to see if there's any mention of these peoples' backgrounds. If they're predominantly city-dwellers (as I expect they'd be), then them having been believers in the Stalin cult from early on wouldn't be surprising at all.

could you please provide the author name?
googling "suny" i found mainly State University of new York
Of course. His name is Ronald Grigor Suny and he has quite an impressive academic pedigree: graduated Swarthmore, Ph.D. from Columbia, current director of the Eisenberg Institute for Historical Studies, professor at the University of Michigan, professor emeritus at the University of Chicago, and former assistant professor at Oberlin.
 
Molotov might not live as long ITTL. He was in forced retirement after 61, running the USSR would be much more stressful and might cause him to die somewhat earlier. He'd probably make it to the 70s though.

More stressful than being an underground revolutionary for years, then having to fight through a bitter civil war? More stressful than living under Stalin’s malign influence for almost three decades with the ever-present risk of being purged along with his wife etc? More stressful than having his career ruined and being shipped off to Mongolia and then purged from the party itself by his old comrade Khrushchev? More stressful than being shunned lke a leper in old age?

I think you overestimate the day-to-day pressures of ''the job'' which Molotov could easily handle and underestimate the toughness old iron arse.:D

Molotov was the very personification of a Soviet apparatchik. His being forced out of work from 61 onwards would have done him more harm than just about anything else.
 
Re: the discussions about Stalin's popularity or lack of, British newspapers (the serious ones) and TV news often carry reports about how the old people still admire him. Although that may be a mixture of seriously rose-tinted history and 'the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill'.

With regards to Beria, I would have assumed that as soon as Stalin is dead, he's completely stuffed. Unless he takes over before anyone finds out Stalin is dead...or does a runner!
 
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