Stalin dies, and Beria takes over

What would the affects of Stalin dying (murdered hopefully)in 1941 after Barbarossa begins say Oct 41, and Beria replacing him, would the Soviet Union give up and go for peace in 1942
 

Cook

Banned
G’day JRH,

I’d have to say if Stalin died in ’41 or was allowed to “retire due to illness” at his Dacha after the start of Barbarossa a group leadership would be the initial result rather than one individual.

And no, I don’t see them making a peace offer although Stalin made several.

I think we had a similar thread to this not too long ago.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
G’day JRH,

I’d have to say if Stalin died in ’41 or was allowed to “retire due to illness” at his Dacha after the start of Barbarossa a group leadership would be the initial result rather than one individual.

And no, I don’t see them making a peace offer although Stalin made several.

This. Collective leadership with Molotov at the helm. We have to remember that Beria wasn't nearly as powerful pre-War or during the War as he was post-War. The NKVD had actually been pretty gutted by the end of the Purges and wasn't the monolithic power it would become as the War progressed.

We also ought to remember that Beria owed everything to Stalin, without whose patronage he would have been booted out a long time ago. Nobody (except mild-mannered Malenkov, oddly enough) really cared for the guy and would not only have scrambled to prevent him leading a coup (as they did IOTL), but they would have done it without so much as a second thought.

So, yeah, collective leadership ultimately falling under the control of Molotov.

I think we had a similar thread to this not too long ago.
Eh, what are you gonna do? This is just one of those same ol' things that gets dredged up every so often because folk either don't want to or know how to use the search bar :rolleyes:
 

Cook

Banned
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Eh, what are you gonna do? This is just one of those same ol' things that gets dredged up every so often because folk either don't want to or know how to use the search bar :rolleyes:


Well I was trying to put it more gently Wolf.
:)
 

Old Airman

Banned
Zhdanov would be the most likely head of collective leadership, with Molotov being number 2 and Beria number 3, sort of CEO of USSR, Inc.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Zhdanov would be the most likely head of collective leadership, with Molotov being number 2 and Beria number 3, sort of CEO of USSR, Inc.
Whoa, what? Zhdanov? Andrei Aleksandrovich Zhdanov? You mean the guy who could barely go a month without getting sick? The guy whose only major duties prior to the War was being the Leningrad Party boss and serving in the completely honorary role as Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of Russia (not, note, of the USSR, but just Russia)?

No, no, no. Trust me, the top guy would have been Molotov with Kaganovich and Zhukov (or whoever's in charge of the military at this point) vying for number 2. Beria would be the number 4 at best.
 
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There's no way in hell the Soviets are going to ask for a peace deal from the Nazis. The Nazis' idea of peace was to kill all of the Russsians so they'd have no one to fight. Even if they asked for Brest-Livotsk-type terms, Hitler still wouldn't agree to it. He had based his entire political philosophy on killing Bolsheviks, no way he was going to stop at the height of his conquests. The moment the Nazis crossed the border, it became a battle for survival. There was no other option in either country's mind other than total victory or complete destruction.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
There's no way in hell the Soviets are going to ask for a peace deal from the Nazis. The Nazis' idea of peace was to kill all of the Russsians so they'd have no one to fight. Even if they asked for Brest-Livotsk-type terms, Hitler still wouldn't agree to it. He had based his entire political philosophy on killing Bolsheviks, no way he was going to stop at the height of his conquests. The moment the Nazis crossed the border, it became a battle for survival. There was no other option in either country's mind other than total victory or complete destruction.
Exactly. And even if Stalin's successors offer a peace (they won't, since the first one to propose that will be shot), it won't be accepted.

Stalin offered the Nazis three peace deals; one in 1941, one in 1942, and one in 1944, when the Soviets were actually winning. The 1944 offer was actually quite generous: either 1914 or 1940 borders, I can't recall which exactly (both were offered at one point, though).

Anyways, what I'm getting at is that even when the Nazis were objectively losing they still turned down very generous Soviet peace offers. Long story short, so long as Hitler's in charge, the Eastern Front is only going to end when one side has been annihilated.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Well, the Politburo will more or less stay untouched. Just expect Beria and the rest of the "Caucasian Clique" in the Soviet hierarchy (except Mikoyan) to get the boot as soon as the others can swing it; I can't stress enough how much everybody else detested Stalin's "little mountain princes."

Again, the top leader will be Molotov, and it's likely to stay that way for a very very long time. Like, until he dies since he (not Stalin) will likely be seen as the savior of the USSR, whereas Stalin will be remembered for the Purges and little else.

The top dogs in the Politburo, then, will be Molotov, Kaganovich, Voroshilov, Mikoyan, Zhdanov, and Khrushchev, Shvernik, Voznesensky, and Malenkov, probably in that order. Oh yeah, Kalinin will still be around, but he'll still be the doddering old nothing he always was.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Well, if Molotov's at the head, it might end up being junta-ish if he's able to pack the Politburo with his generals.
What generals? A junta would just not be Molotov's style. Nor would he need generals; pretty much every one of the Soviet potentates was okay with the guy, and he was pretty fair to them. Molotov only turned on other Politburo members when Stalin told him to.

No, no. Molotov was literally the embodiment of an apparatchik. No generals on his Politburo, and that'll be for damned sure.
 

Cook

Banned
No, no. Molotov was literally the embodiment of an apparatchik. No generals on his Politburo, and that'll be for damned sure.

I think Wolf’s correct here; expect the Politburo to maintain Government and The Stavka to run the Battles.
 
As said above, Kaganovich would probably be no.2 to Molotov. Molotov would be the successor because he would be the obvious consensus choice, and the party would need to annoint someone quickly to replace Stalin. I could actually see Kaganovich taking over the NKVD once Beria and his cronies are put up against the wall, he was considered as one of the potential replacements for Iagoda, and the guy was no slouch in the bloodshed department (one of the leading figures in the Holodomor and purging the heavy industries in the Great Purges).
 
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As said above, Kaganovich would probably be no.2 to Molotov. Molotov would be the successor because he would be the obvious consensus choice, and the party would need to annoint someone quickly to replace Stalin.

woha, i just did some research, and I found out that Molotov died in 1986! :eek:

Had he taken over in 1941 (let's say Stalin kills himself in his shock over Barbarossa, or gets thrown out by the generals or the politburo) and Molotov rules until his death, that's 45 years. For comparison, that's only 1 year less than Kim Il-Sung ruled North Korea. Given that Molotov remained an unrepentant Stalinist until his death, I can only imagine that he would have established the same weird, creepy paternalistic personality cult that Stalin and the Kims did. Imagine Soviet schoolchildren in the 80s being taught that Kind Grandfather Molotov had delivered their nation from the fascist invaders in its hour of greatest need and continued to watch over them even to that very day... Futhermore, this likely means that two more generations of dissidents will be killed outright rather than merely harassed and imprisoned like they were in Brezhnev's time.
 
No-one ever remembers Stalin's gentler side.
:D

I think that side died in his early childhood.

If Stalin was to be replaced in 1941, it would have been by Molotov. Several of the higher-ups were already ready to follow him, all Molotov had to do was seize the reigns.
 
Total breakdown of the CCCP, I am afraid.
Stalin's cult was too ingrained in '40 CCCP society not to be one of the fundamental factors of russian resistance to the invasion.
His death in concomitance with a massive foreign invasion would be sure signs of the apocalypse
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
woha, i just did some research, and I found out that Molotov died in 1986! :eek:

Had he taken over in 1941 (let's say Stalin kills himself in his shock over Barbarossa, or gets thrown out by the generals or the politburo) and Molotov rules until his death, that's 45 years. For comparison, that's only 1 year less than Kim Il-Sung ruled North Korea. Given that Molotov remained an unrepentant Stalinist until his death, I can only imagine that he would have established the same weird, creepy paternalistic personality cult that Stalin and the Kims did. Imagine Soviet schoolchildren in the 80s being taught that Kind Grandfather Molotov had delivered their nation from the fascist invaders in its hour of greatest need and continued to watch over them even to that very day.
Yup! Though I'm not sure if Molotov would have as extensive a cult of personality as post-War Stalin or the Kims did; he never really liked being in the spotlight, and there's a good chance that he'll shift a lot of praise from himself to the Party, like "Thank goodness the Party and Comrade Molotov led us to victory over the fascists!"

That being said, there probably will be something of a personality cult springing up, but more along the Brezhnev line (only without the militaristic overtones).


And to give you an idea of how ridiculously long-lived these potentates will be...
  • Molotov: 1890-1986
  • Kaganovich: 1893-1991
  • Malenkov: 1902-1988
  • Mikoyan: 1895-1978
This isn't even counting the "younger" folks like Brezhnev and Andropov that are sure to wriggle their ways to the top.

And we thought gerontocracy under Brezhnev was bad . . . :rolleyes::eek:
Futhermore, this likely means that two more generations of dissidents will be killed outright rather than merely harassed and imprisoned like they were in Brezhnev's time.
Oh yeah. Without the Khrushchev Thaw and especially if the Stalinists stay in power, violent and nasty purges are still going to be the norm, though I very much doubt they'll ever reach the Terror levels of '36-'39.
 
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