St. Patricks Day Challenge: No Irish conversion to Christianity

How do you know that? Lithuania was created by "Pagans". Macedonia was founded by Pagans. The Kievan Rus was founded by Pagans. Dacia was founded by Pagans. Rome was founded by Pagans. Lots of successful civilizations were founded Pagans all over the world. So why should the same be true if none of the remaining Germanic kingdoms in Europe converted to Christianity?

His argument seems to boil down to, roughly speaking "monotheism good, polytheism bad." He doesn't at all take into account that he pretty much just described several centuries of Christian and Muslim Europe.
 
His argument seems to boil down to, roughly speaking "monotheism good, polytheism bad." He doesn't at all take into account that he pretty much just described several centuries of Christian and Muslim Europe.

I'm so sick of hearing of this biased, short-sighted theory that a non-Christian post Roman Europe would be going down the shitter in cultural terms. Its utter bollocks. Sophisticated, literate, urban societies managed to appear without the guidance and influence of Christianity. Why shouldn't the same thing not happen again? The Germanic tribes that took over were no less intelligent or organized than any other ethno-cultural group that appeared before them. As long as they're engaged in long-distance trade with other cultures, minting their own coinage, have full use of an alphabet (Runic, Ogham), then "civilization" should spring right back.
 
Swan Station said:
However, what I think still has to be considered is why the Irish don't become Christian -- how do you keep the missionaries from coming to Ireland in the first place? Depending on the reason, this may change the culture of Ireland itself.
I'm not sure it wouldtake that much of a shift for the Patrician mission to either not happen or fail. For Ireland to remain pagan in the longrun, that#s far more unlikely.

That was kind of the point of my question. The original poster asked how Christianity could be kept out of Ireland, not just get rid of Patrick's mission to Ireland (which he was already aware of would not be enough).
 
I think inevitably christianity prevails. It doesn´t collapse without Ireland, like Carlton pointed out there are other missionaries at work as well.

But suppose it slows down. Suppose Ireland would still be pagan at 1100. (And a lot of butterflies in Europe I won´t go into).

Then I think crusade would be interesting, whether it´s a norman conquered England, or something else... saxon or something, lots of possibilities.

Then if development in Europe stays similar with some sort of enlightenment movements and nationalism later on, maybe paganism could make a comeback... sort of like a new age nationalism or something. Anyway, interesting, could be cool TL if anyone feels up to it.
 
I read... somewhere, it may have been Cahill, that early Christians largely considered Rome to be the specific earthly reservoir for Christianity and that Christianity was only meant for places where their god had decided the Roman Empire should include. I don't recall how Ethiopia or Armenia were supposed to fit in this theory, but Ireland does seem to have been one of the first areas to feel the effects of missionaries, a sort of testing ground for conversion techniques.

So... keep the Western Romans around for a while longer and make Christianity seem not just foreign but the arm of a homogenizing and conquering empire? Then again, how much longer could the West hold out, realistically?

Of course, this would involve taking my source at face value, so yeah.

I'm so sick of hearing of this biased, short-sighted theory that a non-Christian post Roman Europe would be going down the shitter in cultural terms. Its utter bollocks. Sophisticated, literate, urban societies managed to appear without the guidance and influence of Christianity. Why shouldn't the same thing not happen again? The Germanic tribes that took over were no less intelligent or organized than any other ethno-cultural group that appeared before them. As long as they're engaged in long-distance trade with other cultures, minting their own coinage, have full use of an alphabet (Runic, Ogham), then "civilization" should spring right back.

Honestly, I can see exactly one civilising advantage of Christianity and that's the common cultural background available for the spread of intellectual and technological developments. Of course, I'd imagine persecuting heretics and purported witches does its own bit to stunt growth...
 
Had the Irish not converted, we might have seen Christianity taking more time than what had happened to convert the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in post-Roman Britain. So either Celtic paganism continues on abated or the Irish eventually through contacts with Muslim traders from Al-Andalus might have Ireland become a Muslim outpost. Then again expect to have the Irish suffer a more brutal conquest than what Lithuania had to suffer by the Teutonic Knights.
 
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