Tomatoes, Maize, Sweet Potatoes, and Peppers all have their origins in Mesoamerica (as well as Northern South American in some cases). Maize in particular took a long time in its journey north, only arriving in the Upper Mississippi/Great Lakes reason around 2000 BP, Squash around 3000 BP, while Sweet Potato, Tomatoes, and Peppers never did until the Columbian Exchange. Now we can probably contrive a way to get them to Upper Mississippi before their arrival OTL, but frankly that's not necessary, because the
Eastern Agrcultural Complex already has its origins in the Upper Mississippi (a bit later than your proposed time period, but the crops are already there). If you combine some of the EAC crops (
goosefoot,
sunflower,
sumpweed,
little barley,
maygrass, and
erect knotweed) with Wild Rice you've got a solid suite of Neolithic Founder Crops to work with, especially if a legume or two are domesticated as well. I'm particularly fond of the American Groundnut -
Apios Americana, the
Thicket Bean (the only member of the bean genus found natively in the Midwest and Northeast), and
American Vetch myself. If you're wanting more tubers, you still don't really need Potatoes/Sweet Potatos, but can instead look to the
Jerusalem Artichoke or the already mentioned groundnut. Interestingly, there's also several species of flax which grow in the Missouri River Basin, most notably
Linum lewisii, which could serve a similar role to here to what flax did in the fertile crescent - namely as an oil seed and fiber plant (and likely replacing sumpweed in the former role).
All interesting things and plants to take note of. Many thanks for expanding on the ideas.
Have you read the Where the River Flows TL? It's excellent.
Chapter 1: The Great Kingdom It was a bright summer day in the city of Kahoquah. It was the a type of day where the warmth was cooled by a soft summer breeze that soothed the soul and refreshed all those who felt it; the type of day where merchants and vendors would gather at the markets...
www.alternatehistory.com
I haven't as of yet, but I will try to read it ASAP. Thank you!
Maize wasn't widely grown north of the Gulf until the 6th century AD or so, and only reached productive levels in many places about a thousand years ago. It took time to make it more cold tolerant.
Dogs would probably be bred smaller (like terriers) in order to catch mice. I think that was one of the roles of the smaller Mesoamerican dogs anyway. The other option would be mustelids like the various weasels, ermines, stoats, etc. which are more than capable of killing mice (and rabbits too, another pest).
Homotherium was the size of a lion and a direct competitor with early humans for mammoths and other vital game. That's not something you want to domesticate, that's something you want to kill before it kills you, your tribe, and all the mammoths.
That's more of a cultural thing than something you could predict. The Mississippi basin has a lot of diverse terrain, and the Plains aren't really good for farming outside of river valleys (which lack fuel once you cut down the trees) because of the very hard soil, frequent drought, and unpredictable weather. That leaves the rest of the region which includes lots of dense forest and rugged hills like the Ozarks and Cumberland Plateau. The Gulf is of course mostly a swamp.
At such an early POD, the Lakota and Ojibwe didn't really exist although a lot of the eastern US was Siouan of various sorts. Some groups associated with the OTL Mississippian culture like the Natchez, Yuchi, Tunica, etc. speak language isolates and probably represent remnants of earlier language families. Evidence is the relatively recent spread of Muskogean languages (mostly as a trade language/resulting from tribes merging after being wiped out by colonization and disease in the 16th century onward) and Siouan languages. The earliest European explorers described a huge number of languages from Virginia to Louisiana, many of which appear to be unrelated to each other and other languages. And then there's the matter of Florida whose pre-colonial languages are also language isolates and whom culturally are (except for the northern area of the state) rather distinct from the rest of the South.
It's incredibly difficult tracking languages and their speakers back 500-1000 years, let alone 5000-10,000.
Sweet potatoes are commonly grown in places with shorter growing seasons because of early/late frosts like the Upper South, so not really tropical.
Alright, so Maize is a no go for a while, thank you for clearing this up for me.
Is it even possible to domesticate mustelids? I don't personally know if it is, but if so, then yeah, I could see that happening. Would be interesting to see Europeans react to Otters doing what Cats do in the Old World. And no Homotherium, got it.
Could a vast canal/irrigation system help in the plains for some time? Also, from what I've read, the source of the Mississippi River (and likely it's entire river system) is Lake Itasca in Central MN. Maybe you could explain how the forests could fuel the rivers and what would happen to them once cut down?
Also, thanks for clearing up the cultural thing. SO it's one of the three groups you mentioned earlier or Siouan. I'll just need to find a good english to that language dictionary to translate everything effectively.
Thanks for telling me this. So would it be possible for Sweet Potato to grow in the upper south once they arrive after several centuries then?
Why didn't OP include north American llamas as one of his domesticates? I think that would be a good choice.
I did include Camelops, which was the North American Camel. It was just later on and not in my original post for the thread.
Here's what was canon or semi-canon in North America.................
Muscovy duck, ocellated turkey, grey fox and coyote. Mesoamericans kept melipona or stingless bees, iguanas and and possibly peccaries. For cats, I'm unsure except that ocelots used to range as far north as Arkansas and jaguarundis might have a more northern range if those would be easier to tame than the bobcat. Now camels originated in the Americas much like the horse and got big, so those are a potential as well as shrub-ox/wood-ox. Also look into some of the mammoths as a few of them lasted well into pre-Columbian times. Mind you, I doubt they can be domesticated, but maybe tamed. As for the horse, well when horses and donkeys were domesticated in the Old World they were smaller but were made larger through selective breeding. Same can be applied for the American horse.
As for founder crops well, there's wild rice, cattails and the whole Eastern Agricultural Complex that was independent of Mesoamerica. Plenty of root crops as well.
I don't know if Mammoths/Mastodons could survive the end of the Ice Age even if they were bread to be pets, but if they did survive, they would defintely prove an interesting tool for Native Americans when warring, especially when two groups are fighting one another. Could see if be used as a sign of being beloved by the Gods and the strength of an Empire.
Thanks for telling me about Ocelots and Jaguarundis. Both would provide good cat species to tame/domesticate if mustelids prove impossible to do the same.
Finally, thanks for reminding me of the EAC. I had honestly forgotten about that for some time, so maybe the starting package can be Mississippi Rice, Sunflowers, and Calabash and it grows to include more crops overtime.
Sweet potatoes are definitely of tropical origin, but summers in much of the United States are warm enough for successful cultivation.
Interestingly though, there is a native edible tuberous
Ipomoea species,
I. pandurata, that grows as far north as Ontario. With minimal selection (mostly to decrease toxin levels), it could be an additional domesticate.
It wasn't so much cold resistance as needing to select for shorter maturation time and day-length insensitivity. Tropical maize typically needs a longer growing season to mature and often doesn't flower until days are 12 hours in length or shorter, which doesn't give a lot of time for the seeds to ripen before frost in temperate climates. Same goes for potatoes and the vast majority of Andean root crops. Quinoa too.
Thanks for the information. Will gladly put this knowledge to good use eventually. If not me, maybe someone else will.
@TheDoofusUser for some reason I skipped over your proposed domestication list and honestly thats a far bigger pod in terms of game changing then the crop list. The ramifications of a northamerican camel, horse and ox are massive. But first I am gonna talk about the simpler ones.
Regarding the cat niche some here have suggested just breeding smaller dogs to to catch mice and that seems simpler then domesticating a bigger feline. Not all animals have the correct temperament for domestication. And we already established they had dogs so the wolves, coyote and foxes are unnecessary (there is only one example I know of fox domestication and that is in 20th century USSR, I think they are used in a small number but only as mascots, dunno what use they could have assuming this could be done millennia ago).
Regarding the Mylohyus while extinct their wider family
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peccary is still alive in central and south america and this is what wikipedia says about their domestication
So it could be ok but I dont know.
You mentioned mastodons too right? My guess if they can create an american elephant they would probably be used for 3 things: prestige pet of rulers, war elephants and execution method (death by elephant is no joke), dunno if elephants in the old world had any economic use.
Now the giving ancient americans camels, horses and oxes completely changes the history of the whole continent. I cant imagine their use not spreading to mesoamerican and southamerica eventually. This shortens distances massively. Makes animal powered agriculture, transportation and travel possible. This removes one of the 2 biggest different between the old world and new world: their lack of big pack animals, the other being their isolation of old world pandemics.
The butterflies of that one are way too big. At first I was thinking "but why wasnt the western horse domesticated in otl?" when you mentioned it was as big as a Mustang I worried it may be too big to domesticate as I had the vague impression ancient domestic horses were smaller and that may had something to do with domestication potencial. But apparently it doesnt seem to be a problem
. So this is one problem solved.
The shrub-ox is a very interesting idea. You mentioned china as a possible comparison to a dense mississippi civilization and the ox was one of china's earliest domestications and a massive advance for their agriculture. I cannot address how big this is for the americas, probably the only region in the world at the time of european contact to mainly use human labour for agriculture, logistics and travel to a much larger degree then animal labour. A continent where people plowed the land by themselves, carried their load by themselves to the point of needing well paid professional goods carriers and where messages where as fast as professional runners. Everything costier as much more difficult.
The camels completely change the face of Aridoamerica and Oasisamerica much the same way horses change life for all steppe and plain nomads in the continent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aridoamerica . This would empower nomads in the area making them as powerful traders and raiders as the old world central asian, arab and berber nomads. Hell I wouldnt be surprised if dependency of the animal lead for people in the area to develop form of dress and life similar of those in northafrica. Spanish and portuguese explorers would probably call them moros or even berbers much like how they named filipino muslims moros or some southeast asian ethnic groups "negritos" (little blacks, as in africans). French would probably call them moors too or saracens. I can imagine ttl wikipedia having pages like "berbers may refer to: the northafrican ethnic group or an unrelated group of native north american peoples". Oasisamerica, california and maybe even the pacific nowrthwest would be connected to mesoamerica and the mississippi by trade. This would increase the development of civilizations in areas as far as canada and southamerica.
Speaking of canada I wouldnt put the domestication of the muskox out of reach: that animal can only be used as a critical emergency resource as it was done before european colonization or as a domesticated animal. Horses would allow american peoples to hunt them much easily and in general the alt domestications would rise their populations. Is quite possible if one of the nomads is driven further north, as it happened to the turkic sakha in siberia, they could be forced to domesticate the animal to survive.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...omestication/D25629479CEEAF65226A10282A6617B2
Not to mention with cow milk, mare milk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_milk and camel milk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_milk now available this adds another source of protein for both settled and nomadic peoples. This is important bc in otl there only llama milk but it was hardly ever consumed
https://www.dairymoos.com/milk-in-pre-columbian-america/ since while it is nutricious is scarcer then other doemstic mammals, making it unpractical. I once read an antropological work about milk consumption among andean peasants that say they generally saw taking the llama milk as stealing from her offsprings. My guess it wasnt possible to produce milk without risking the feeding of the offsprings. In this timeline lactose intolerance would be a lot less common in the americas, specially among nomads.
This empowers the nomadic groups that were a pain in the ass for european empires all the way into the 19th century. One has to think they were much weaker during the times of aztecs and incas bc nomads didnt have horses agaist this settled empires. My guess is any mesoamerican empire would constantly be under threat of raids or even conquest from northern aridoamerican nomads much like mississippian empires will be threaten by them from the west. My guess mesoamerican empires would be in contact by sea with the mississippians and bond a little about their mutual hatred for desert nomads
.
Speaking of sea contact before I recommended having a caribbean people discover the sail to connect the continent by sea. Every Grass in Java had the Taino discover it in the 10th century and that had massive ramifications for his timeline, bringing the caribbean and mississippi to the same level as mesoamerica and the 3 overall higher then otl even if still behind the old world.
But in ttl with a more developed and connected continent I cant see the sail not being discovered and much earlier. The caribbean cant remain as isolated and underpopulated as it was. Hell places as far as otl Río de la Plata could see big changes.
By the time Columbus arrives he may be more justified in thinking he is in china or india. Probably less people would doubt him.
Finally regarding empires in the mississippi I imagine this would be a central part of their organization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_empire
Oh boy, a gigantic post. Alright, time to respond to each statement.
So, we've been discussing between Ocelots, Mustelids, and Jaguarundis to possibly have the same niche as cats and if all those are impossible, then Small Dogs are likely are best bet.
As for Mylohyus, each of the species that has been mentioned thus far went extinct in s specific timeframe.
Euceratherium (Shrub-ox) - 9,500 years ago
Western Horse - 10,000 years ago
Camelops - 8,000 years ago
American Mastodon - 8,500 years ago
Mylohyus - 9,000 years ago
reasonably speaking, since all five species went extinct in a 2000 year timeframe and the Clovis People arrived 11,500-11,000 years ago, meaning that with enough time and a good roll of the dice, the five species can survive longer and north america and eventually be domesticated. This leaves out Harlan's Muskox (Bootherium) [extinct 11,000 years ago, around the time of Clovis people arriving], so that species might be gone, but the Western Horse and everyone else has 1500-3,000 years before they die out.
I didn't mention Mastodons earlier, but now that if they can be tamed, then I guess they would indeed be possible. Also, one thing I noticed, with greater civilization, wouldn't old world diseases hit worse than OTL? It devastated the Native populations just like OTL, but it wasn't as bad as it could've been because the tribes were all seperate and not interconnected. However, if they're all crammed into cities, then one person could be unknowingly infected with smallpox or yellow fever or some other really bad plague and be a messenger to a city. They arrive to that city and suddenly one becomes five which then becomes 10 then 20 then 40 then 80 and so on and so forth. So civilization might be a double edged sword for Native Americans in that it would give the New World an entirely different archelogical and cultural history than OTL but it would lead to a much worse plague era for them to suffer through.
Also, something I realized. The Natives would've had longer contact with Horses than the Old World, so wouldn't it be possible that Native Americans are the first to domesticate horses in the New World as the Old World slowly struggles to catch up on that front? I think it might be an interesting point.
Very interesting point. We could maybe see some type of Aridoamerican or Oasisamerican Nomadic invasions into Mesoamerica and the Missississippi river valley, bringing their beliefs and cultures with them in a similar way to the Nomadic invasions of the Old World, which might lead to the constructions of great walled cities and great walls themselves to keep the Nomads out. I can only imagine Europeans mapping out the Americas only to find ruins of a massive wall in their path, which would probably lead them to suggest dozens of crazy theories about it.
on Carribbean People, while in OTL, they weren't settled until the 800s iirc by the Arawak/Taino people, here we could see early settlement of the islands by Mississippian and Eastern American peoples, leading to them becoming like the Sea Peoples/Vikings of the Old World that raided, pillaged, and conquered before creating their own kingdoms. I wonder if we could see the entire eastern and maybe western coasts of the Americas become centers of civilization thanks to rivers and the crops and animals. I doubt much of the interior would be settled, but European reactions to massive coastal civilizations would be interesting reads as they describe cities as large as Venice filled with Water and people dressed in gold and such all on the beach instead of inland.
I wonder if the population of any North American Civilization could reach circa 1500 Ming China Population, though maybe slightly higher due to lack of plague killing everybody every couple centuries.
On your final point, yeah, I could see that emerging, but that empire would probably start at or near Lake Itasca and use the threat of cutting people off from water or rapidly flooding a city to slowly conquer people and create an empire without needing to raise a sword, which is scary in its own right. If you're interested in helping me map out details, I can dm you my discord information and you can contact me so we can hammer it out more.
I just realized something: is there any animal to fill the donkey niche? I cant find info on extinct american asses.
Would Donkeys even be needed in this TL? I assume Native Americans would just breed smaller horses into existence to fill their niche rather than trying to find another animal.
This was the list I used -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_animals_extinct_in_the_Holocene
Thanks for participating in this thread everyone. I honestly didn't expect it to get so big considering this topic has already been discussed to death.