St. Louis Area Civilization Crop Package and Domesticated Animals

So I've had a major question in my head and I did some research. So What if when Humans first cross over into the New World, they bring Dogs with them (I can't find if they brought cats with them or not, But I'm assuming they did), these species don't go extinct and are instead domesticated by the Humans - Shrub-Ox (Euceratherium collinum), Dire Wolf (Aenocyon dirus)/Red Fox (Vulpes Vulpes)/Gray Fox (Urocyon cinereoargenteus)/Coyote Canis Latrans) if another Dog Species is needed or something, Homotherium or the Scimitar Toothed Cat if Cats are needed, Mylohyus, Turkeys, and the Western Horse (Equus occidentalis) as the Domesticated species (it doesn't have to be every one of the these animals that are suggested, just ones needed to make a civilization sustainable) followed by a Crop Package of Maize/Corn, Wild Mississippi Rice, Sweet Potatoes, Tomatoes, Peppers, Sunflowers, Pumpkins, Squash, Beans, Blueberries, and Black Walnuts. How successful do you think this civililzation would be with these two factors when placing it in the St. Louis area (meeting point of the Mississippi & Missouri Rivers) say 6000-5000 years ago?

Also, with such a large river system (pictured below, will the Plains be Nomadic in this world or be filled with City States and Kingdoms until you go deeper to Montana/Wyoming? (was originally going to ask about how to have civilizations emerge in the Amazon Mouth Basin, Orinoco river basin, and Rio Grande basin, but those are questions for another day)

Mississippiriver-new-01.png
 
About the cats this is what I could find in a 2 minutes google search. A maybe: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article...ight-have-domesticated-bobcats-2000-years-ago

And a "looks like domestic cats were introduced": https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/bm4dty
I guess you could say what if the domestication of the bobcat was completed/worked better?

Alright, so have Native Americans domesticate Bobcats and keep their dogs with them. Any thoughts on the Shrub-Ox, Western Horse, and Mylohyus domestication as well as the crop package?
 
Alright, so have Native Americans domesticate Bobcats and keep their dogs with them. Any thoughts on the Shrub-Ox, Western Horse, and Mylohyus domestication as well as the crop package?
IIRC the western horse was too small to be a pack animal much less a mount. Dont know much about the other animals but regarding the crops an idea from Every Grass in Java's excellent and unfortunately abandoned tml https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/land-of-sweetness-a-pre-columbian-timeline.444626/ that I like a lot is making caribbean natives (lake the taino) develop the sail for their boats greatly increasing the trade and connectivity of mesoamerica, the caribbean, the mississippi and even the andes by sailing boats. This would spread not only goods, ideas and armies (further developing war in the americas) but also spread crops and animals (like the very useful llama) that woulnt cross to northamerica until much later. Of course I dunno at which starting point would you have the caribbeans develop the sail and when its plausible. Every Grass in Java has the taino develop it in the 10th century I think which is fairly late.
 
IIRC the western horse was too small to be a pack animal much less a mount. Dont know much about the other animals but regarding the crops an idea from Every Grass in Java's excellent and unfortunately abandoned tml https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/land-of-sweetness-a-pre-columbian-timeline.444626/ that I like a lot is making caribbean natives (lake the taino) develop the sail for their boats greatly increasing the trade and connectivity of mesoamerica, the caribbean, the mississippi and even the andes by sailing boats. This would spread not only goods, ideas and armies (further developing war in the americas) but also spread crops and animals (like the very useful llama) that woulnt cross to northamerica until much later. Of course I dunno at which starting point would you have the caribbeans develop the sail and when its plausible. Every Grass in Java has the taino develop it in the 10th century I think which is fairly late.

Actually, the Western Horse was about the Size of a Mustang, weighing in at 519 kg (1,144 lbs), so it could've been a pack animal and a mount. Meanwhile, the Shrub-Ox was 607.5 kg (1,339 lb) and was similar to the Musk-Ox. Finally, Mylohyus was a Peccary that was a medium-sized pig. Don't know how effective Turkies would be. The final thing was the original crop package I introduced, being the following : Maize/Corn, Wild Mississippi Rice, Sweet Potatoes, Tomatoes, Peppers, Sunflowers, Pumpkins, Squash, Beans, Blueberries, and Black Walnuts. They cultivate these crops to make a sustainable civilization from 6-4000 BCE and beyond right up to Old World contact.
 
Actually, the Western Horse was about the Size of a Mustang, weighing in at 519 kg (1,144 lbs), so it could've been a pack animal and a mount. Meanwhile, the Shrub-Ox was 607.5 kg (1,339 lb) and was similar to the Musk-Ox. Finally, Mylohyus was a Peccary that was a medium-sized pig. Don't know how effective Turkies would be. The final thing was the original crop package I introduced, being the following : Maize/Corn, Wild Mississippi Rice, Sweet Potatoes, Tomatoes, Peppers, Sunflowers, Pumpkins, Squash, Beans, Blueberries, and Black Walnuts. They cultivate these crops to make a sustainable civilization from 6-4000 BCE and beyond right up to Old World contact.
Arent some of those crops native to southamerica? How did they reach the north so early? And in state thet can be cultivated? I would think it would a few thousands years later they would reach north through trade.
 
Hey guys, the OP doesn't have access to a computer, but I am a relay for it. He asked me to post his responses for him as he'll be able to see things due to his email allowing him to see notifications.

Anyway, here's something he posted
I was unaware some of these crops originated in South America. Which two (with Wild Mississippi Rice being the grain crop) grown in North America would be best for the Crop Package?
@EnvarKadri
 
Hey guys, the OP doesn't have access to a computer, but I am a relay for it. He asked me to post his responses for him as he'll be able to see things due to his email allowing him to see notifications.

Anyway, here's something he posted

@EnvarKadri
I honestly asked bc I wasn't sure. Was talking from memory so I may be wrong, let me check.
Sweet potato is plausible.
Maize too.
Tomato is probably the one I was thinking about. Its wild ancestor is from western southamerica and it seems it didn't appear as a crop in mesoamerica until 500 BC. But the 1994 source wikipedia uses said it already was cultivated by 500 BC so it may have started earlier. Maybe you can find a newer source that iluminates on that.
Peppers are again from mexico and ancient enough for the proposed pod. Good.
Sunflowers are good too. From Mexico and domestication started 2600 BC and was finished by 1000 BC.
Pumpkin is perfect. From northamerica and as early as 7000 BC.
Squash is excellent again. From mexico and as early as 8000 BC.
Same with beans but from 4000 years later.
Blueberries and walnuts seem correct too.

Turns out I was wrong. This package is absolutely plausible, you can make tomato domestication start earlier if you want to with little problem I think.
 
Interesting. The OTL analogy to this civilization would obviously be the Mississippian mound-builders. However, this one has several clear advantages.

1) More diverse and less soil depleting crops: The Mississippians were extremely reliant on corn, which depletes soil very quickly. This resulted in a cycle of collapses and rebuilding that they never really escaped. Beans helped slow down the depletion a bit when they were introduced, but they weren't enough to stop the cycle of collapse. If this society is less reliant on corn it can possibly escape that cycle altogether.
2) More protein. Lack of protein was a major problem in the agricultural societies of North America, since they lacked domesticates to eat. The Mesoamericans tried to make up for this by breeding dogs for eating, but the Mississippians didn't even do that. As a consequence, they were reliant on hunting for enough protein. As wild animal populations shrunk, this would cause major problems, possibly contributing to the cycle of collapse. However, this civilization has plenty of domesticates to eat, so it doesn't need to worry about protein.
 
About the cats this is what I could find in a 2 minutes google search. A maybe: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article...ight-have-domesticated-bobcats-2000-years-ago

And a "looks like domestic cats were introduced": https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/bm4dty
I guess you could say what if the domestication of the bobcat was completed/worked better?
The bobcat thing IIRC is a few individuals being close with bobcats, like someone who killed one and found some kittens and raised them. Similar things happened around the world with all sorts of animals, so it might not be evidence of domestication. That Reddit link is correct as well in regards to cats.

I think though there was a real possibility for the Norse to introduce domestic cats in the 11th century if they'd stayed a little longer (not even permanently), and from there cats would've traveled across the continent. They probably would've been akin to the later Maine coon cat and been used for fur (if processed its non-allergenic) or eaten among many groups, similar to how the lynx and bobcat were treated.
 
A bit of a weird question, but if we assume that somehow some light skin alleles get in this region(Eastern North America) early on and there are farming communities for thousands of years, would the north Americans end up selecting those alleles as Europeans(at least central-southern ones) and many East Asians were?
 
Interesting. The OTL analogy to this civilization would obviously be the Mississippian mound-builders. However, this one has several clear advantages.

1) More diverse and less soil depleting crops: The Mississippians were extremely reliant on corn, which depletes soil very quickly. This resulted in a cycle of collapses and rebuilding that they never really escaped. Beans helped slow down the depletion a bit when they were introduced, but they weren't enough to stop the cycle of collapse. If this society is less reliant on corn it can possibly escape that cycle altogether.
2) More protein. Lack of protein was a major problem in the agricultural societies of North America, since they lacked domesticates to eat. The Mesoamericans tried to make up for this by breeding dogs for eating, but the Mississippians didn't even do that. As a consequence, they were reliant on hunting for enough protein. As wild animal populations shrunk, this would cause major problems, possibly contributing to the cycle of collapse. However, this civilization has plenty of domesticates to eat, so it doesn't need to worry about protein.
Regarding the meat while the alternate domestications are good I still thing it would be excellent if they can get their hands on the llama too. After all is the only american animal that provides wool. Would help a lot to spread civilization toward the colder north.
 
A bit of a weird question, but if we assume that somehow some light skin alleles get in this region(Eastern North America) early on and there are farming communities for thousands of years, would the north Americans end up selecting those alleles as Europeans(at least central-southern ones) and many East Asians were?
While not the most common I think there is a few groups that are more east asian looking and light skinned. I remember seeing some years ago in TV a representative of Bolivia's first nations that I swear looked east asian enough I didn't realize at first he was native american.
 
While not the most common I think there is a few groups that are more east asian looking and light skinned. I remember seeing some years ago in TV a representative of Bolivia's first nations that I swear looked east asian enough I didn't realize at first he was native american.
They might just be mixed with Europeans or even east Asians, the Andes have one of the highest UV concentration in the world, so selection against light skin should be strongest there, though I'm not sure how clothing affects that.
 
I honestly asked bc I wasn't sure. Was talking from memory so I may be wrong, let me check.
Sweet potato is plausible.
Maize too.
Tomato is probably the one I was thinking about. Its wild ancestor is from western southamerica and it seems it didn't appear as a crop in mesoamerica until 500 BC. But the 1994 source wikipedia uses said it already was cultivated by 500 BC so it may have started earlier. Maybe you can find a newer source that iluminates on that.
Peppers are again from mexico and ancient enough for the proposed pod. Good.
Sunflowers are good too. From Mexico and domestication started 2600 BC and was finished by 1000 BC.
Pumpkin is perfect. From northamerica and as early as 7000 BC.
Squash is excellent again. From mexico and as early as 8000 BC.
Same with beans but from 4000 years later.
Blueberries and walnuts seem correct too.

Turns out I was wrong. This package is absolutely plausible, you can make tomato domestication start earlier if you want to with little problem I think.

I might Drop Tomatoes then with it being a later introduced Crop. However, the initial crop package could be Corn, Mississippi Rice, Pumpkins, Walnuts, and Beans followed by Blueberries, Sunflowers, Peppers, and Squash being added after the initial period and then Tomatoes and Sweet Potatoes are the final two that are added. So yeah, a Crop Package like that might really kickstart the civilization in the region.

The bobcat thing IIRC is a few individuals being close with bobcats, like someone who killed one and found some kittens and raised them. Similar things happened around the world with all sorts of animals, so it might not be evidence of domestication. That Reddit link is correct as well in regards to cats.

I think though there was a real possibility for the Norse to introduce domestic cats in the 11th century if they'd stayed a little longer (not even permanently), and from there cats would've traveled across the continent. They probably would've been akin to the later Maine coon cat and been used for fur (if processed its non-allergenic) or eaten among many groups, similar to how the lynx and bobcat were treated.

I did suggest the Scimitar Cat being domesticated. However, if they are too big to be domesticated, then maybe Wildcats travel across the Bering Land Bridge with Early Native Americans and are slowly domesticated alongside them. True, it may not be the Norse, but the Natives would probably create their own unique breeds for different purposes.

A bit of a weird question, but if we assume that somehow some light skin alleles get in this region(Eastern North America) early on and there are farming communities for thousands of years, would the north Americans end up selecting those alleles as Europeans(at least central-southern ones) and many East Asians were?

Interesting. I have no idea if this could happen, personally speaking, but maybe it happens as a result of the civilization growing?

Regarding the meat while the alternate domestications are good I still thing it would be excellent if they can get their hands on the llama too. After all is the only american animal that provides wool. Would help a lot to spread civilization toward the colder north.

Or maybe the North American Camel (Camelops) doesn't go extinct as well. After all, it went extinct only 10kya which is the same time period as the Western Horse, Shrub Ox, and Mylohyus as well. They could provide wool and extra meat for the natives of the area and would be very important when crossing the Southwestern deserts to trade with Mesoamerica.

While not the most common I think there is a few groups that are more east asian looking and light skinned. I remember seeing some years ago in TV a representative of Bolivia's first nations that I swear looked east asian enough I didn't realize at first he was native american.
They might just be mixed with Europeans or even east Asians, the Andes have one of the highest UV concentration in the world, so selection against light skin should be strongest there, though I'm not sure how clothing affects that.

I suppose that would make a lot of sense, all things considered.

To add to this, with the massive River system that the Mississippi is, could one culture/ethnic group effectively Han Chinese it over time and become the dominant group in between the mountains, swamps, deserts, and tundra? I don't know which ethnic group this would be, but I'm thinking it'd be either the Eastern Sioux, Lakota, or Ojibwe. I'd ask how big the population of this civilization could get when considering the crop package, but I think this is enough for one post in and of itself (I did read an interesting thread that discussed a China size civilization in NA).
 
Interesting. The OTL analogy to this civilization would obviously be the Mississippian mound-builders. However, this one has several clear advantages.

1) More diverse and less soil depleting crops: The Mississippians were extremely reliant on corn, which depletes soil very quickly. This resulted in a cycle of collapses and rebuilding that they never really escaped. Beans helped slow down the depletion a bit when they were introduced, but they weren't enough to stop the cycle of collapse. If this society is less reliant on corn it can possibly escape that cycle altogether.
2) More protein. Lack of protein was a major problem in the agricultural societies of North America, since they lacked domesticates to eat. The Mesoamericans tried to make up for this by breeding dogs for eating, but the Mississippians didn't even do that. As a consequence, they were reliant on hunting for enough protein. As wild animal populations shrunk, this would cause major problems, possibly contributing to the cycle of collapse. However, this civilization has plenty of domesticates to eat, so it doesn't need to worry about protein.

Both very good points. Doesn't this thread solve 90% of the brick wall these types of conversations run into?
 
I might Drop Tomatoes then with it being a later introduced Crop. However, the initial crop package could be Corn, Mississippi Rice, Pumpkins, Walnuts, and Beans followed by Blueberries, Sunflowers, Peppers, and Squash being added after the initial period and then Tomatoes and Sweet Potatoes are the final two that are added. So yeah, a Crop Package like that might really kickstart the civilization in the region.



I did suggest the Scimitar Cat being domesticated. However, if they are too big to be domesticated, then maybe Wildcats travel across the Bering Land Bridge with Early Native Americans and are slowly domesticated alongside them. True, it may not be the Norse, but the Natives would probably create their own unique breeds for different purposes.



Interesting. I have no idea if this could happen, personally speaking, but maybe it happens as a result of the civilization growing?



Or maybe the North American Camel (Camelops) doesn't go extinct as well. After all, it went extinct only 10kya which is the same time period as the Western Horse, Shrub Ox, and Mylohyus as well. They could provide wool and extra meat for the natives of the area and would be very important when crossing the Southwestern deserts to trade with Mesoamerica.




I suppose that would make a lot of sense, all things considered.

To add to this, with the massive River system that the Mississippi is, could one culture/ethnic group effectively Han Chinese it over time and become the dominant group in between the mountains, swamps, deserts, and tundra? I don't know which ethnic group this would be, but I'm thinking it'd be either the Eastern Sioux, Lakota, or Ojibwe. I'd ask how big the population of this civilization could get when considering the crop package, but I think this is enough for one post in and of itself (I did read an interesting thread that discussed a China size civilization in NA).
Dont worry about the sweet potato. Its central american cultivation can be find as early as 5000 years ago. It can appear not long after the initial crops. Tomato is the only odd one out.
 
Top