SSTs Become Popular

That's because the coefficient of drag greatly decreases between Mach 1 and 2. A Mach 2+ aircraft would be proportionately more efficient than one that was left in the low Mach 1 range

I'm the first to admit that my knowledge of the details of supersonic aerodynamics is spotty and sketchy, so I'd greatly appreciate being shown the curves that indicate this.

My understanding is that there's a spike of absolutely terrible coefficients, where everything goes kerflooey, around Mach 1--drag doubles, lift halves, and the control moments take a hike to the other end of the plane. Then above Mach 1 the bad numbers are indeed plummeting down, but they have a ways to go from the peak of badness. They meld in to a curve of more reasonable behavior at as I dimly already recalled around Mach 1.2-1.3 or so.

However, unless I am mistaken, they rise toward difficultly again beyond that point. They don't rise fast--a poorer lift/drag ratio at Mach 2 than Mach 1.4 is OK because it isn't 10/7s as bad but less than that, so the thrust requirement is not increased in proportion and so one does indeed get better thrust/mile figures. So it's not that the drag coefficient is actually dropping, it's that it rises slowly enough that the time saved because one is going faster more than offsets the fact that the aerodynamics are getting worse. One burns less fuel for a given distance than at the slower Mach speed.

But make no mistake, designing for the higher Mach speed is tough. The optimal shape for best performance at high speed imposes penalties on low-speed performance, and the contradiction gets sharper the faster one tries to go. Most important I believe, is the thermal problem. Shocked air gets hotter the faster one tries to go, and at Concorde-like speeds one is getting into the realm where traditional materials will not take it, therefore one has to develop a whole new materials basis, expensively, and even if the designs get accepted in a mass market and spread out the development cost the stuff--stainless steels, titanium, advanced ceramics--is inherently expensive.

Hence Wallis's early training wheel suggestion, design for just past the transonic zone of sheer awfulness, where shock heating is still within the range of working with traditional materials, where the aerodynamic forms are still within shouting distance of something that works well subsonic, where engine designs are not too far a stretch from what works subsonic.

Also this was the realm in which test planes and military designs of that generation were aiming to go, so pretty soon designers would have lots of hard data about real planes operating there. Real engines good enough for the military would be incrementally improved. And so on.

Hmmm... Doubling speed/halving the time would be worth a lot to some people. Increasing speed by 25%? You'd have a heck of a time charging the necessary increase in fare, IMO.

Well, you are underestimating the speed difference. The earliest jetliners accepted on the market, like the Boeing 707, actually went faster than is the standard today; Convair designs went well over Mach .9. Nowadays however a speed like Mach 0.8 is considered perfectly normal and some jets go slower than that. Apparently that's the economics of superior fuel consumption trumping getting there a bit sooner at work, which supports your point.

However, a Mach 1.25 plane is not just going at 5/4 the speed of a typical jetliner, but more like the square of that, around 50 percent faster! It would shave off a whole third of the transit time; on a very long flight, LA to Sydney, that's a whole lot of hours.

I quite agree, if the plane is going to wind up costing twice as much and burning a lot more fuel per mile, it won't be worth it. But what if the higher cost per unit of passenger/cargo capacity is only modestly higher, and the fuel costs are in the same ballpark as the subsonic jetliner? Then it would seem to me the airline that offered this capability on long transoceanic flights would be able to charge a modest premium and yet have waiting lists of customers climbing up on the ticket desks!

So it's all a matter of how much those margins can be lowered. I think it's a good bet that with design knowledge and know-how already developed by this date, such a design can be almost taken off the shelf.

This alt-history what-if seems more focused on WI the job had been done in the past, presumably in the 1950s or early 60s. I submit that then the dynamics would have been quite different; there would be less sobriety about achieving minimum costs per ton-mile and more about the cachet of being on the very cutting edge. Wallis's solution may have fallen between stools--too advanced to be easy to do, too modest to inspire enthusiasm. As it turned out, the more ambitious goals turned out to be biting off more than the industry could reasonably chew and even with improvements in engines, materials, and general aerodynamic knowledge, I still suspect that even now a new Concorde type plane capable of Mach 2 or more might still be ineconomic, let alone something as ambitious as what Boeing was going for. But Mach 1.5 or 1.6, certainly Mach 1.3--these ought to be doable in a competitive manner, and by that I mean the development and operating costs low enough so that the passenger would have to pay a lot less than 50 percent more in ticket costs to get there in 2/3 the time. And that should be viable.

Trying to map out how and when it could have worked out back in the early 60s--well, if a Mach 1.4 plane had been available to passengers in 1965, the whole jet industry might have been forced to go that way; Concorde and still more the 2707 might have seemed the obvious wave of the future. Then when the oil shocks hit, rather than abandon the relatively slow supersonics I think the pressure would be on to improve their engines and fine detailed aerodynamics to bring the fuel economy and noise down to something acceptable, because I don't think passengers would accept 2/3 the speed they were used to.

A Wallis-type modest supersonic plane might have been available long before even 1965 and locked in low supersonic as the minimum standard from the very beginning of the jet age. Then there would be constant incremental improvements, modest increases in speed masking dramatic improvements in materials and engines; the passenger would mainly be looking at "does it go a bit faster" but the airlines would be asking "is it cheaper per passenger/mile" and so both goals would advance slowly. Of course they should both be asking "do I roast in mid-flight" and "does it melt and fall down?" so a lot of what would be regulating the pace of improvement would be improving materials and cooling and so on. In fact there might be a long plateau where speeds hold at already achieved standards while the major thing changing is engine reliability, quiet, and efficiency, because the real barrier is the thermal thicket and making progress there is a matter of developing and integrating all kinds of stuff.
 
Fun question to ask all yourselves. What impact would supercruise engines have on this?

The big problem with Concordes (or any other SST) pre LATE 1980's or even 1990's (I'd have to look up when certain engines became viable) was as someone noted, they guzzle fuel... becasue they in essense use a ramjet (aka, afterburner) to generate extra thrust. Supercruise engines, don't. Think about _that_.
 
Fun question to ask all yourselves. What impact would supercruise engines have on this?

The big problem with Concordes (or any other SST) pre LATE 1980's or even 1990's (I'd have to look up when certain engines became viable) was as someone noted, they guzzle fuel... becasue they in essense use a ramjet (aka, afterburner) to generate extra thrust. Supercruise engines, don't. Think about _that_.
Actually, the Concorde HAD supercruise engines. They may have needed afterburner on take-off, but cruising didn't need them. Possibly you're thinking of the Tupolev 'Concordski'
 
Right. But it's certainly valid to wonder, how much more efficient an engine designers could make today to perform in the envelope of the Concorde, in the light of their experiences designing what the Air Force calls "supercruise," which was I guess more demanding than the Olympus could deliver in its day. Nothing wrong with the Olympus, just saying I'd think a modern engine ought to be able to significantly outperform it.

Combine that with scaling the top speed down a bit, to ease all manner of strains, and we ought to be able to make something much more economical than the Concorde, cruising in the Mach 1.6 or so range.
 
Actually, the Concorde HAD supercruise engines. They may have needed afterburner on take-off, but cruising didn't need them. Possibly you're thinking of the Tupolev 'Concordski'

Most definitely didn't need them at take-off, they were in fact overpowered for low speed flight (although apparently the burners were used). The burners were first and foremost to accelerate through the transonic speeds quickly (and for the record the same was true of the 144, no one was foolish enough to try and build an SST without supercruise). That said, eliminating the need for afterburners was one of the big improvements planned for the Concorde B.
 
anon_user said:
You'd have to avoid both the oil crisis and the emergence of the jumbo jet. The 747 had such strongly superior economics to the SST that it's almost laughable.
Word. To make SSTs competitive against even 707s, let alone jumbos, you need way more seats & fuel about as cheap as, oh, seawater.;)
 
I am having trouble finding what a low Mach (1.2 or so) aircraft would look like. The research I have done thus far indicates that while low Mach aircraft were considered, everyone just skipped right over them in order to go straight to Mach 2.0+ designs. I am considering having Convair make transonic aircraft and am wondering if I can use Convair 990s as stock photos, or if transonic aircraft would have delta wings and other high speed design features.

This site has some pictures. And here too.
 
People are proposing slow SSTs. Note that Boeing tried selling the Sonic Cruiser which would have been 20% faster than current planes for about the same cost. They couldn't get anyone interested. That suggests the time saving of an SST has to be pretty significant.
 
THAT IS an interesting thought... Convair launching a B-58 transport within a few years of the 707 and DC-8 rather than attempting the 880 and 990. I don't see how it could lead to ubiquitous SSTs but with something in service this I don't think we'd see them disappear completely as in OTL either. We'd almost certainly see something along the lines of VIP business and military transports in small numbers if it had happened that way.
 

Delta Force

Banned
Check out my latest timeline update for Need for Speed, Convair and Boeing end up swapping historical outcomes.
 
People are proposing slow SSTs. Note that Boeing tried selling the Sonic Cruiser which would have been 20% faster than current planes for about the same cost. They couldn't get anyone interested. That suggests the time saving of an SST has to be pretty significant.

I would be "people", I guess. By "Low" I mean, well over Mach 1 (the Boeing Sonic Cruiser was to go just under Mach 1) but below Mach 2, at which speed we know from both theory and experience, there are serious thermal issues demanding all sorts of alleviations. Wallis's proposal was to cruise at speeds where shock heating would raise stratospheric temperature air to normal surface temperatures. Also, going slower than Mach 2 should mitigate the stretching and compromising of airframes and engines that must operate well in both regimes, and somewhat reduce sonic booms.

I am not sure just what the optimal "Modest Mach" would be; high enough to get past the bad aerodynamics of the immediate transonic range--which by the way the recent Boeing high subsonic thing nudges into on the other side, so that makes its aerodynamics hence economics particularly dodgy--Mach 1.05 would be bad, I suspect Mach 1.2 is still too low. If Mach 1.6 is not too high--that would be double the cruising speed of a modern jetliner, not an incremental 20 percent! For that kind of increased speed, a certain cost is worth paying--provided it isn't too much. So the question is, can we do economically today what the designers of the past never seriously attempted, which is to design something in that range?

But meanwhile other threads have led me to take a good look at this!
 
This site has some pictures. And here too.

THAT IS an interesting thought... Convair launching a B-58 transport within a few years of the 707 and DC-8 rather than attempting the 880 and 990. I don't see how it could lead to ubiquitous SSTs but with something in service this I don't think we'd see them disappear completely as in OTL either. We'd almost certainly see something along the lines of VIP business and military transports in small numbers if it had happened that way.

Check out my latest timeline update for Need for Speed, Convair and Boeing end up swapping historical outcomes.

Delta Force, those links to B-58 based models are exactly the designs I was warning you about; that's the same damn engine configuration that was so often fatal in the bomber version.

Also note--the Convair proposals were not "low," or modest Mach as I'm calling it now to avoid confusion with high subsonic. Convair was talking about cruising well over Mach 2, at the same speeds or a bit faster as the Concorde later achieved. No one proposed to explore Mach 1.5, apparently!
 
Dathi THorfinnsson said:
People are proposing slow SSTs. Note that Boeing tried selling the Sonic Cruiser which would have been 20% faster than current planes for about the same cost. They couldn't get anyone interested. That suggests the time saving of an SST has to be pretty significant.
That's now OTL. Without OTL's Concorde & 747 as examples, why wouldn't a speed edge of as little as 20-25% have a real cachet? As a matter of fact, the high ticket price alone could convey that: only the rich & famous will be found on SSTs. Concorde, as it turned out, did better as a money-maker when prices were raised,:eek::confused:;) apparently for that very reason.
 
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