Sports WI and Challenge: Super MLB (Baseball)

Okay, I think its about time for another sports WI as an aside from the usual WIs (that centre around war and politics).

So, I was browsing through the history of the Montreal Expos and saw that there were thoughts of moving them to Monterrey, Mexico and San Juan, Puerto Rico. As a non-American, I still don't quite understand how it is that Canadian teams are involved in what seems to be essentially American domestic sports competitions (such as Basketball, Baseball and even Soccer). But seeing as how two Canadian teams were involved in the MLB (Toronto Blue Jays and Montreal Expos) and since there were ideas of moving one of the teams to Mexico or Puerto Rico (before they finally ended up in Washington, D.C.) I wondered what it would take to get MLB teams being found in Mexico and Puerto Rico and for some more MLB teams to be in Canada. I also wondered what it would take for the Canadian and Mexican teams to be in separate leagues from the American League and National League (but for all four leagues to still be a part of the MLB).

So, if anyone just wants to speculate on more Canadian teams in the current MLB structure (and for Mexican teams and a Puerto Rican team to be in the current MLB structure) please go right ahead. But if anyone is willing, perhaps they can speculate on what it would take to have an MLB like this:

Major League Baseball (MLB) with four leagues:

National League (NL)

East Division:
  • Atlanta Braves (Atlanta, Georgia)
  • Miami Marlins* (Miami Gardens, Florida)
  • New York Mets (New York City, New York)
  • Philadelphia Phillies (Philadephia, Pennsylvania)
  • Washington Nationals (Washington, D.C.)

Central Divison
  • Chicago Cubs (Chicago, Illinois)
  • Cincinnati Reds (Cincinnati, Ohio)
  • Houston Astros (Houston, Texas)
  • Milwaukee Brewers (Milwaukee, Wisconsin)
  • Pittsburgh Pirates (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
  • St. Louis Cardinals (St. Louis, Missouri)

West Division
  • Phoenix Diamondbacks* (Phoenix, Arizona)
  • Denver Rockies* (Denver, Colorado)
  • Los Angeles Dodgers (Los Angeles, California)
  • San Diego Padres (San Diego, California)
  • San Francisco Giants (San Francisco, California)

American League (AL)

East Division
  • Baltimore Orioles (Baltimore, Maryland)
  • Boston Red Sox (Boston, Massachussetts)
  • New York Yankees (New York City, New York)
  • Tampa Bay Rays (St. Petersburg/Tampa Bay, Florida)
  • San Juan Boricuas or Borincanos (San Juan, Puerto Rico)

Central Division
  • Chicago White Sox (Chicago, Illinois)
  • Cleveland Indians (Cleveland, Ohio)
  • Detroit Tigers (Detroit, Michigan)
  • Kansas City Royals (Kansas City, Missouri)
  • Minneapolis Twins* (Minneapolis, Minnesota)

West Division

  • Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim (Anaheim, California)
  • Oakland Athletics (Oakland, California)
  • Seattle Mariners (Seattle, Washington)
  • Arlington Rangers or Dallas Rangers* (Arlington, Texas (Dallas/Fort Worth area))

Canadian League (CL)

East Division
  • Montreal Royales (Montreal, Quebec)
  • Toronto Blue Jays (Toronto, Ontario)

West Division
  • Calgary Mounties or Trappers (Calgary, Alberta)
  • Victoria Capitals or Vancouver Loggers/Axmen (Victoria, British Columbia or Vancouver, British Columbia)

Mexican League (Mexican Major League) (LM or ML or MML)

North Division
  • Tecolotes de los Dos Laredos (Owls of the Two Laredos) (Nuevo Laredo, Tamaulipas and Laredo, Texas)
  • Sultanes de Monterrey (Monterrey Sultans) (Monterrey, Nuevo León)

South Division
  • Diablos Rojos del México (Mexico City Red Devils) (Mexico City, D.F.)
  • Tigres de Cancún (Cancún Tigers)* (Cancún, Quintana Roo)

* Oh, and also it becomes universal practice for the teams to be named after the cities they are based in (or really close to) instead of after the state or province. Naturally as this is the post-1900 section, any POD would have to be in 1900 or later (though I suppose if the POD was in 1880 or 1890 it shouldn't be a problem).
 

Jasen777

Donor
I think this is the type of thing that needs a series of small PODs.

How do you envision your set-up working with the imbalance in the number of teams between the Canadian and Mexican leagues and the American and National leagues?

Canada could certainly support another team or two - Montreal failed because of horrific ownership. 4 teams in Canada is realistic. Ottawa is another good candidate, if there's not too much overlap with Montreal.

Latin America is a problem though, they don't have the public financing for stadiums and the corporate power to fill luxury boxes. And they don't really have the means to pay absurd prices for merchandise and support high TV revenue. If things were different in say the '20s they could perhaps support a team, but even with a tradition behind them, they likely couldn't compete financially today. Even the triple-A International League only had one team in Latin America - Havana in the '50s.
 
Well it all depends on which format you're thinking about Jasen777. If the American League and National League had simply expanded to include a few more teams in Canada, a team in Puerto Rico and a few teams in Mexico, it may only require a couple of small PODs. If the Montreal Expos had moved to Monterrey in 2004, might'n that open up Mexico so to speak for the MLB?

How do you envision your set-up working with the imbalance in the number of teams between the Canadian and Mexican leagues and the American and National leagues?

Not sure what you mean by this. I counted the teams again and I have an even number (38), so technically no team should be sitting idle. If you are referring to the 16 and 14 teams in the American and National Leagues versus the 8 teams in total in the Canadian and Mexican Leagues, then I'm still not sure what the problem is. Don't they have inter-league play in the MLB? If so then the teams from Canada and Mexico shouldn't really be short of opponents. And when there isn't any interleague play they would probably have a double home-and-away round robin (or maybe even triple home-and-away round robin) format to decide their individual league titles. You don't really need a lot of teams to have a season: in Australia there are only six first-class state cricket teams, but the domestic season lasts about 4 months. Afterwards the champions of the Canadian, Mexican, American and National Leagues would probably all play what in effect would be a semi-finals round.

Latin America is a problem though, they don't have the public financing for stadiums and the corporate power to fill luxury boxes. And they don't really have the means to pay absurd prices for merchandise and support high TV revenue. If things were different in say the '20s they could perhaps support a team, but even with a tradition behind them, they likely couldn't compete financially today. Even the triple-A International League only had one team in Latin America - Havana in the '50s.

But, that is the Latin America of today. Let's suppose the National League had managed to get a team in the Two Laredos early on (say the 1920s), then that would be over 80 years of developments that would have to be accounted for first before judging the state of the stadia and the strength of corporate power to fill luxury boxes (assuming luxury boxes aren't butterflied away during those 80 years). And if the MLB had expanded into Mexico in the 1920s then there probably wouldn't be any absurd prices for merchandise today (after why would the MLB want to kill off growing popularity in Mexico?). Or there might even be different price structures for merchandise in the USA/Canada and in Mexico. The entire issue of prices (and maybe a bit of nationalism) might even be a catalyst for any Mexican teams to break from say the National League and form their own League (Mexican Major League) within the MLB. Something similar might happen for Canada or alternatively the defunt Canadian Baseball League or something similar to it that started earlier could have evolved into a Canadian (Major) League.

Just a note on the teams from Mexico, I selected them based off the four teams that have won the most in the Mexican domestic baseball league. Entirely by coincidence I noticed that these 4 teams also seemed the best suited financially:

1. The Two Laredos would really be a joint Mexican-American team since it would be based on either side of the Rio Grande.

2. Monterrey isn't that far from Texas and is one of the larger cities in Mexico (larger potential fan base which means more potential revenue).

3. Mexico City is the capital and largest city and would probably have the equivalent support of Toronto in Canada.

4. Cancun would probably be the weakest in terms of financing, but as one of the stronger teams domestically in Mexico it should have decent fan support. In addition we all know Cancun is popular vacation spot for Americans (and some Canadians), so matches...sorry games in Cancun would probably have a sizeable American presence in the stands for part of the year. The fact that MLB interleague matches would be played there would probably only increase the appeal of Cancun as a tourist destination for Americans and fans in say Toronto or New York would probably love the idea of going to Cancun to watch their team and then hitting the beach.
 

Jasen777

Donor
If the Montreal Expos had moved to Monterrey in 2004, might'n that open up Mexico so to speak for the MLB?

It might. Why wasn't the team moved there? I don't remember exactly, it seems like Monterrey could be the best place in Mexico to put a team.

Afterwards the champions of the Canadian, Mexican, American and National Leagues would probably all play what in effect would be a semi-finals round.

The playoffs was what I was asking about. It's not fair to have the Canadian and Mexican league champions on the same level as the American and National league champion when those leagues are 3 times larger. That would work if the Canadian and Mexican teams were in a different league, but I can't see that happening if they are in the same league, it's too big of a disparity.

Incidentally, since the Mexican and Canadian leagues are roughly the size of a division in the American in National leagues, it might work as an eight team playoff with the division winners of the American and National leagues and the Canadian and Mexican league winners.

then that would be over 80 years of developments that would have to be accounted for first before judging the state of the stadia and the strength of corporate power to fill luxury boxes (assuming luxury boxes aren't butterflied away during those 80 years).

You're right that alot can happen in 80 years, but Mexico is still in all probability going to be poorer than the U.S. Merchandising may very well be cheaper in Mexico, but that still leaves the U.S. teams having a money advantage.

It occurs to me that it might help expansion into Latin America alot if the players' union wasn't so strong, and the owners were able to put a hard salary cap in place. Also, Latin American players need to be subject to the draft to prevent richer teams setting up academies and getting to talented youngsters before others can. A shrewd commissioner might be able to make a big difference. And greater revenue sharing would help.
 
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Four teams in a league are not enough for competition. Current inter-league play calls for about 15 ganes against oponents from the other league. Even if you doubled this to 30 games against the other leagues, this still leaves 130 games against your other 3 teams in a 4 team league - or over 40 against each team in the league. This is too many against a single opponent.

Then there is a problem with last place teams. 50% of each division will come in last. With only 4 teams, you could hardly have a wild card team. An International League, with a Canadian and a Mexican division would be your best bet. With 8 teams and inter-league play, you now have enough league opponents to limit yourself to 20 games against the other 3 teams in your division and a few less against the teams in the other.
 
It might. Why wasn't the team moved there? I don't remember exactly, it seems like Monterrey could be the best place in Mexico to put a team.

True. I don't know exactly why it wasn't moved there...I was kind of hoping this TL would attract some more sports fans who would give some incite into this and discuss the repercussions if such a move had occurred (or if the MLB had a larger presence in Canada and a presence in Mexico).

Jasen777 said:
The playoffs was what I was asking about. It's not fair to have the Canadian and Mexican league champions on the same level as the American and National league champion when those leagues are 3 times larger. That would work if the Canadian and Mexican teams were in a different league, but I can't see that happening if they are in the same league, it's too big of a disparity.

Incidentally, since the Mexican and Canadian leagues are roughly the size of a division in the American in National leagues, it might work as an eight team playoff with the division winners of the American and National leagues and the Canadian and Mexican league winners.

I see what you mean, and that is probably what would happen. The Canadian League champions and Mexican League champions (assuming that there was a Canadian League and a Mexican League and that the teams weren't simply in either the American or National League) would probably end up playing off against the 6 division champions of the American and National Leagues....sort of like a quarter-finals stage.


Jasen777 said:
You're right that alot can happen in 80 years, but Mexico is still in all probability going to be poorer than the U.S. Merchandising may very well be cheaper in Mexico, but that still leaves the U.S. teams having a money advantage.

It occurs to me that it might help expansion into Latin America alot if the players' union wasn't so strong, and the owners were able to put a hard salary cap in place. Also, Latin American players need to be subject to the draft to prevent richer teams setting up academies and getting to talented youngsters before others can. A shrewd commissioner might be able to make a big difference. And greater revenue sharing would help.


Mexico will be poorer, but most likely any expansion in Mexico would be into the richest areas of Mexico (and if those areas can no longer support teams there would be a contraction wouldn't there?). US teams will only have a money advantage if the sales in the US and Mexico are roughly equal per team. Higher prices doesn't alway mean more income (a fact which many merchants overlook in their efforts to squeeze every last dollar out of the consumer). Cheaper merchandise in Mexico might well be bought by Mexicans, Mexican-Americans, other Latino-Americans and other Americans in general because of the good deal (especially in the Two Laredos for instance).

Prinz Richard Eugen said:
Four teams in a league are not enough for competition. Current inter-league play calls for about 15 ganes against oponents from the other league. Even if you doubled this to 30 games against the other leagues, this still leaves 130 games against your other 3 teams in a 4 team league - or over 40 against each team in the league. This is too many against a single opponent.

Then there is a problem with last place teams. 50% of each division will come in last. With only 4 teams, you could hardly have a wild card team. An International League, with a Canadian and a Mexican division would be your best bet. With 8 teams and inter-league play, you now have enough league opponents to limit yourself to 20 games against the other 3 teams in your division and a few less against the teams in the other.

I see what you mean, but how would Canadian and Mexican teams carry out intra-league play (or inter-division play)? In that case, perhaps the Canadian and Mexican teams would form Canadian and Mexican Divisions in the American and National Leagues. But then again, there doesn't even have to be Canadian or Mexican anythings (divisions or leagues) - I just thought those up as a challenge because of I read something on the Canadian Baseball League (CBL) which was a minor League and wondered if there could have been an equivalent Canadian Major League in the MLB like the American and National Leagues. Probably in all likelyhood the Canadian and Mexican teams would be part of the American and National Leagues at first (assuming an early POD doesn't start a major league in Canada with 8 or more teams) and then maybe they would separate into an Canadian and Mexican Divisions with the American and National Leagues and then maybe form an International League with the Canadian and Mexican Divisions. In all cases though, with 6 original divisions (East, Central and West in the AL and NL) and a likely set of 8 Canadian and Mexican teams in 2 divisions (or leagues in a less likely scenario), there would be 8 "divisional" champions and effectively a divisional quarter-finals stage.
 
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