Sports What Ifs.

[Colonel Zoidberg]

So...the Pacific Coast League fried to declare major league status in the late 1940s, but the AL and NL wouldn’t hear of it. The NL dipped its toes in the West Coast in the late 1950s, though, so absorbing PCL teams would not be out of the question if the PCL played its hand better (a third major league long-term is pushing ASB but an AFL-style solution could work.) It would also mean that markets such as Portland and Sacramento could possibly keep their feet in MLB.

So the relevant list of teams:

Hollywood Stars
Los Angeles Angels
Portland Beavers
Sacramento Solons
San Diego Padres
San Francisco Seals
Seattle Rainiers
Vancouver Mounties

Vancouver is the franchise most in trouble; San Francisco is doing the best and is the most valuable.

So here’s the story - before the 1957 season, the PCL merges with MLB after lengthy discussions. The terms:

-Each League receives four PCL franchises, divided up by agreement
-The schedule remains 154 games with no divisions
-Each League May be asked to move a franchise to replace a relocated one out of the PCL teams; the PCL franchises agree that no more than one franchise in each league is subject to this
-Current MLB teams may relocate only to vacant former PCL cities, including Oakland and any city vacated in the future
-Expansion delayed until 1964 at the earliest

The Braves have already relocated to Milwaukee and the Browns and Athletics to Baltimore and Kansas City, respectively. However, with the West Coast off limits, the Dodgers and Giants stock it out in New York. The Dodgers assist the Giants in construction of a new stadium, preserving the rivalry and preventing a move to Minnesota.

The NL wins a coin toss and elects to take the San Francisco Seals. This comes with a requirement that they also take the nearby Sacramento Solons and the struggling Vancouver Mounties, and that the AL gets first crack at LA teams. The AL takes the Angels, leaving the NL with the Stars.

Alignment after the merge is as follows.

AMERICAN LEAGUE
Baltimore Orioles
Boston Red Sox
Chicago White Sox
Cleveland Indians
Detroit Tigers
Kansas City Athletics
Los Angeles Angels
New York Yankees
Portland Beavers
San Diego Padres
Seattle Rainiers
Washington Senators

NATIONAL LEAGUE
Brooklyn Dodgers
Chicago Cubs
Cincinnati Reds
Hollywood Stars
Milwaukee Braves
New York Giants
Philadelphia Phillies
Pittsburgh Pirates
Sacramento Solons
San Francisco Seals
St. Louis Cardinals
Vancouver Mounties

In 1961, the Washington Senators move to Minnesota and become the Twins. In response, the AL looks at moving a former PCL team to DC as a replacement franchise, but finding no takers and with the Orioles cajoling the league into leaving them the Beltway for them, the AL abstains. The NL seizes the opportunity and moves the struggling Mounties to DC, where they become the Washington Nationals.

So in 1964 it’s time to look at expansion. I figure that having three teams in NYC and two in LA averts the 1961/62 expansion, but this probably means that the 1969 expansion gets moved up. This is interesting because three of the 1969 spots - KC, Seattle and San Diego - are occupied here. So are NYC and LA, and if DC gets a team back, that doesn’t leave the usual suspects. Houston is a candidate, as is Montreal. Vancouver is a possibility as a replacement for the Mounties, and perhaps Denver as well. Also on the radar are Oakland and Atlanta.

The winners: Houston, Montreal, Atlanta and Vancouver.

The leagues in 1966:

AMERICAN LEAGUE
East
Atlanta Flames
Baltimore Orioles
Boston Red Sox
Chicago White Sox
Cleveland Indians
Detroit Tigers
New York Yankees

West
Kansas City Athletics
Los Angeles Angels
Minnesota Twins
Portland Beavers
San Diego Padres
Seattle Rainiers
Vancouver Ravens

NATIONAL LEAGUE
East
Brooklyn Dodgers
Cincinnati Reds
Montreal Royals
New York Giants
Philadelphia Phillies
Pittsburgh Pirates
Washington Nationals

West
Chicago Cubs
Hollywood Stars
Houston Astros
Milwaukee Braves
Sacramento Solons
San Francisco Seals
St. Louis Cardinals

The late 1960s see the A’s depart Kansas City for Oakland, leaving the Twins the farthest team East in their division. The Braves also leave Milwaukee, this time for Dallas, Texas where they become the Texas Rangers.

Bud Selig seeks to bring baseball back to Milwaukee and tried to buy a couple of teams - the Solons, the Flames and the Washington Nationals. He succeeds with the Nationals and moves them west to Milwaukee to become the Brewers.

The AL expands in the mid-70s into Toronto and Kansas City; Toronto becomes the Blue Jays while Kansas City chooses to honor its Negro League history and call team the Monarchs.

The Seattle Rainiers rebrand in the 70s as the Pilots and the Portland Beavers rebrand as the Crows. The Cleveland Indians, under new ownership, fight the production of the movie Major League, saying it makes the team look bad. It also rebrands as the Eagles, honoring Satchel Paige, partially to change from an “outdated” name but partially to shed a moniker associated with losing.

Around 1990, the NL expands to Miami and Denver, adding the Miami Gators and Colorado Rockies.

By this point, MLB is having serious considerations about updating its playoff format and overhauling its divisions. The Twins and Royals complain constantly about playing 42 games a year on the West Coast two time zones behind them; the Brewers also complain about being in the NL East and not seeing the Cubs and Cardinals enough. The Cubs and Cards had complained for years about not getting teams like the Dodgers and Giants enough.

So in 1992 the leagues align as follows.

AMERICAN LEAGUE
East
Atlanta Flames
Baltimore Orioles
Boston Red Sox
New York Yankees
Toronto Blue Jays

Central
Chicago White Sox
Cleveland Eagles
Detroit Tigers
Kansas City Monarchs
Minnesota Twins

West
Los Angeles Angels
Oakland Athletics
Portland Crows
San Diego Padres
Seattle Pilots
Vancouver Ravens

NATIONAL LEAGUE
East
Brooklyn Dodgers
Miami Gators
Montreal Royals
New York Giants
Philadelphia Phillies

Central
Chicago Cubs
Cincinnati Reds
Milwaukee Brewers
Pittsburgh Pirates
St. Louis Cardinals

West
Colorado Rockies
Hollywood Stars
Houston Astros
Sacramento Solons
San Francisco Seals
Texas Rangers

The early 90s are marred by a work stoppage, but the season is eventually saved and the Montreal Royals go on to win the 1994 pennant, losing the World Series to the resurgent Yankees.

Miami Gators owner Wayne Huizenga makes a run in 1997 but falls short; Texas wins the wild card, and Huizenga sells off the best players to make the team more valuable. The 1998 Gators are a disaster, winning fewer games than even the infamous 1916 Athletics, drawing comparisons to the 1899 Cleveland Spiders. MLB votes to force an unfavorable sale to investors in Phoenix, who move the team and rebrand it the Scorpions. The newly relocated Scorpions move to the NL West, bumping the Rangers and Astros to the Central (to both teams’ delight) and requiring the Pirates to move to the East.

MLB decides to expand to 36 teams, rounding out the divisions at six members apiece. This means a schedule in which each team plays its own division rivals 12 times a year, the rest of the league 6 times a year, and an entire division in the opposite league at three games per team, the division rotating every year. That means 150 games, so each team plays an”standing rival” four times, preserving crosstown rivalries. As such, in years when, say, the Yankees don’t play the Dodgers and Giants, they would burn their four extra games on those two rivalries, two games against the Dodgers and two against the Giants. These “rivalry weekends” would run the Thursday to Sunday before the All-Star break. The schedule is still 154 games, as MLB never had a mathematical reason to alter it (OTL when the leagues were ten teams apiece and later 12, a 162-game schedule worked better; TTL 154 worked just fine.)

The NL looks for one more team out west; Salt Lake City, Las Vegas and San Jose all put bids in. Ultimately Salt Lake City wins, and the Athletics in the AL scuttle down to San Jose.

Also winning expansion teams are Charlotte, Tampa and DC. Tampa wins a team by building a new stadium with a retractable roof after commissioner George W. Bush calls their existing St. Petersburg facility “a steaming turd.” The Tampa Bay Mariners join the Charlotte Knights in the AL while the Washington Admirals join the Salt Lake Bees in the NL.

By 2010, both leagues are aligned as follows:


AMERICAN LEAGUE
East
Atlanta Flames
Baltimore Orioles
Boston Red Sox
Charlotte Knights
New York Yankees
Tampa Bay Mariners

Central
Chicago White Sox
Cleveland Eagles
Detroit Tigers
Kansas City Monarchs
Minnesota Twins
Toronto Blue Jays

West
Los Angeles Angels
Oakland Athletics
Portland Crows
San Diego Padres
Seattle Pilots
Vancouver Ravens

NATIONAL LEAGUE
East
Brooklyn Dodgers
Montreal Royals
New York Giants
Philadelphia Phillies
Pittsburgh Pirates
Washington Admirals

Central
Chicago Cubs
Cincinnati Reds
Houston Astros
Milwaukee Brewers
St. Louis Cardinals
Texas Rangers

West
Arizona Scorpions
Colorado Rockies
Hollywood Stars
Sacramento Solons
Salt Lake Bees
San Francisco Seals

The playoffs allow all six division champions and four wild cards. The wild cards play a single game against each other in their respective leagues; the winners play a best-of-7 against the league’s top division champion; the other two division champs in the league then play a best-of-7 against each other. The series winners face off in the LCS, a best-of-7, and the pennant winners face off in the World Series, with the team carrying the best record into the series receiving home field advantage.

 

[King_Arthur]

Speaking of soccer, i just came up with something: what if the premier league never forms? what would it take for the premier league to never happpen? All i know for sure is that we might have more parity and the best players would be playing abroad instead (italy, spain, germany)...hell, maybe france has a much stronger league if that happens, i don't know...

Football stays the most popular sport, but there is a lot smaller gap between the divisions. United still dominate the 90s and 00s because of Ferguson, but City and Chelsea never get their takeovers. Arsenal and Everton stay more relevant. Serie A also remains a lot more relevant and is probably still the best league in the world. There is a lot less money in football and the record transfer is in the 40-60m range (probably Ronaldo going to Juve or a Milan club in the early 2010s).

Murdoch will try porn instead (his backup plan). He might also come and do something with Rugby League over here when Australia sorts out their Super League wars.

NFL and NBA become britain new pastimes, NFL europa survives as the German-britain league

Lol

 

[kinnikuniverse]

Football stays the most popular sport, but there is a lot smaller gap between the divisions. United still dominate the 90s and 00s because of Ferguson, but City and Chelsea never get their takeovers. Arsenal and Everton stay more relevant. Serie A also remains a lot more relevant and is probably still the best league in the world. There is a lot less money in football and the record transfer is in the 40-60m range (probably Ronaldo going to Juve or a Milan club in the early 2010s).

Murdoch will try porn instead (his backup plan). He might also come and do something with Rugby League over here when Australia sorts out their Super League wars.



Lol

...is the whole murdoch porn deal real or just a joke? Cause having sky porn would be...interesting, to say the least.

I bet that france's ligue 1 and the bundesliga would be a hell of a lot stronger, too. France would likely keep some of their best players in their country, with the elite best of the best leaving for Serie a or the big la liga clubs, but france would have a better chance of keeping their talents. Germany might even be more competitve with a less dominant bayern and more teams like dortmund, bremen, hamburg, leverkusen and schalke challenging for titles way more often. with chelsea and city never having their takeovers and Man utd still having their current post-fergie stress disorder, the first division would be a lot more wide open? Would leeds even collapse financially without the prem money saving them from from their reckless spending? Basically, no prem means more parity in the top 5 european leagues?

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Really cool idea of the PCL merging with MLB like the AFL and NFL.

WI Charlie Finley dies of his heart attack in August of 1973? The Athletics would still be broken up, IMO, but Finley has a much better reputation among his players...

He would still have the battle with Vida Blue and others. The club likely wins the next 2 Series but doesn't lose Catfish Hunter in 1975... but Boston still wins the pennant in '95 since they swept the A's as it was.

There are probably several players who leave in free agency. Maybe not all - ironically, Vida Blue stayed OTL. But, who buys them? Haas a decade early, maybe?

How long Could they keep enough players that they go for one last division title and then beat the Yankees? They'd still lose to the Reds, but it would be an interesting way to end the dynasty, sort of a 1970s version of The Last Dance.

Keeping the Raiders inL.A. would also impact the A's, perhaps they renovate the Coliseum so it's more clearly baseball only, without the crazy amount of foul territory.

As for socialism in American sports, there seems to be some desire to make sure teams remain competituve - this happened way back in the early '30s when the PHillies were given money, even if it was a loan it was still help the majors didn't have to do, in order to stay afloat. I think it was in 1931. The NFL did expand and contract in the 1920s-1940s.

 

[King_Arthur]

...is the whole murdoch porn deal real or just a joke? Cause having sky porn would be...interesting, to say the least.

I bet that france's ligue 1 and the bundesliga would be a hell of a lot stronger, too. France would likely keep some of their best players in their country, with the elite best of the best leaving for Serie a or the big la liga clubs, but france would have a better chance of keeping their talents. Germany might even be more competitve with a less dominant bayern and more teams like dortmund, bremen, hamburg, leverkusen and schalke challenging for titles way more often. with chelsea and city never having their takeovers and Man utd still having their current post-fergie stress disorder, the first division would be a lot more wide open? Would leeds even collapse financially without the prem money saving them from from their reckless spending? Basically, no prem means more parity in the top 5 european leagues?

Murdoch legitimately had to choose between the PL and porn. Ligue 1 was never historically strong (their best players went to Barca, Madrid and Juve) and may even be weaker. Bayern were always dominant but Dortmund and Leverkusen would be stronger. Unfortunately Leeds wouldn't collapse because they wouldn't have the PL to spend in the first place.

Order of the Top 5 in strength would be

Serie A
La Liga = First Division
Bundesliga
Ligue 1

 

[kinnikuniverse]

So yeah, i've got two new york rangers related ones here:

-What if management didn't trade the likes of kovalev, zubov, amonte, doug weight, darren turcotte and marc savard? Sacrifice the 94 cup run for long-term success?

-What if the NHL Arbitrator award lindros to the rangers instead of the flyers?

 

[AltSptHst]

-What if the NHL Arbitrator award lindros to the rangers instead of the flyers?

Weren't some of the above players going to go to the Nordiques as a part of the trade?

 

[kinnikuniverse]

Weren't some of the above players going to go to the Nordiques as a part of the trade?

Yes, indeed. The players included in the package was rumored to be a center (sergei nemchinov), amonte, kovalev, john vanbiesbrouck, james patrick, multiple 1st rounders and $20 million.

Both what ifs are separate, BTW, in case you guys were wondering.

 

[AltSptHst]

Yes, indeed. The players included in the package was rumored to be a center (sergei nemchinov), amonte, kovalev, john vanbiesbrouck, james patrick, multiple 1st rounders and $20 million.

Both what ifs are separate, BTW, in case you guys were wondering.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

If the Beezer goes to Quebec, they probably never end up with Roy because they may not have needed him. Maybe he goes to Chicago instead (they were also in the running).

Also, that seems to be a lot for the Rangers to give up for one player.

 

[AltSptHst]

I was watching an old NFL game from 1992 on You Tube. At halftime, the announcer talked about the previous night's Orlando-Phoenix game (a matchup between Barkley and a rookie Shaq). At the end, Shaq missed FT's that would have sent the game into OT. That game may have been the difference between Orlando getting Hardaway and making the playoffs (they were tied with Indiana for the last spot in OTL, and Indiana "won" the tie-breaker).

If Indiana wins the Lottery instead of Orlando, and they take Webber or Hardaway, do they get a title in the 90's or 00's?

 

[kinnikuniverse]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

If the Beezer goes to Quebec, they probably never end up with Roy because they may not have needed him. Maybe he goes to Chicago instead (they were also in the running).

Also, that seems to be a lot for the Rangers to give up for one player.

And you knwo what the funny part is? They could've not only been a way better team in the long run, but they could've also still won the 94 cup and acquire most of their key players of that run.

Let's say that they don't trade mark tinordi to the north stars. That would be our starting point. Messier, graves and beukeboom still arrives as OTL, but that same year, in 1991, Stephane matteau was traded to chicago for next to nothing. The rangers could easily have him right there without sacrificing amonte.

Then, at the 1993 trade deadline, you could've replaced weight with turcotte for the esa tikkanen trade. Plus, you could've kept van biesbrouck around and took advantage of the steve duchesne holdout that same year.

This means that the rangers would head to the 93-94 season with this roster:

Kovalev-messier-gartner
Graves-weight-amonte
Tikkanen-nemchinov-matteau
Gilbert-marchant-kocur

Leetch-beukeboom
Zubov-duchesne
Patrick/karpovtsev-tinordi
Lowe

Richter
​

Not only does this team still has the perfect balance of grit and skills that the original 94 team had, but it is also alot better. I find it hard to imagine this team not winning the cup.

Then, at the end of the decade, they keep the pick that wpuld end up being jean-sebastien giguere, plus they draft savard and don't miss out on chris drury and brian mccabe. I would add something of my own doing: you trade steve duchesne, a top prospect and a 1st for brendan shanahan in 1996 so that he replaces messier as the captain when the latter leaves in 1997. Then, you bring back duchesne with the 5th rounder and depth defenseman that the flyer did IOTL.

The roster for the early 00s would look something like this:

Shanahan-drury-kovalev
Graves-savard-amonte
Matteau-weight-sundstrom
Marchant-malhotra-knuble

Leetch-mccabe
Zubov-schneider
Johnsson-duchesne
Norstrom


Richter/giguere
​

Damn, that is strong! Sure, some of the roster is inspired by the power of hindsight, but still, that's really good.

 

[kinnikuniverse]

I was watching an old NFL game from 1992 on You Tube. At halftime, the announcer talked about the previous night's Orlando-Phoenix game (a matchup between Barkley and a rookie Shaq). At the end, Shaq missed FT's that would have sent the game into OT. That game may have been the difference between Orlando getting Hardaway and making the playoffs (they were tied with Indiana for the last spot in OTL, and Indiana "won" the tie-breaker).

If Indiana wins the Lottery instead of Orlando, and they take Webber or Hardaway, do they get a title in the 90's or 00's?

It would benefit both teams, actually. Shaq wanted penny at all cost, so not only would the magic still get shaq and penny, but reggie miller would finally have a proper wingman in chris webber. Not only that, but with C-webb, the pacers might be able to upset shaq and kobe in the 2000 finals, since c-webb always had shaq's number, as seen in the 2002 western conference finals. You add jermaine o'neal, jalen rose and,later, ron artest to the mix? That's a big contender, and reggie might finally have a ring.

 

[AltSptHst]

It would benefit both teams, actually. Shaq wanted penny at all cost, so not only would the magic still get shaq and penny, but reggie miller would finally have a proper wingman in chris webber. Not only that, but with C-webb, the pacers might be able to upset shaq and kobe in the 2000 finals, since c-webb always had shaq's number, as seen in the 2002 western conference finals. You add jermaine o'neal, jalen rose and,later, ron artest to the mix? That's a big contender, and reggie might finally have a ring.

Actually, in this scenario, the Magic would make the playoffs, so they wouldn't be in the lottery (and wouldn't get Penny). The Pacers would have missed instead, so they may have gotten the lucky lottery ball that the Magic got, and a chance at Hardaway or Webber.

Who would they have taken (if they won)? Webber was the consensus #1 player, but the Pacers had Dale Davis (and would sign the other half of the Davis Brothers that off-season) at PF, and Pooh Richardson at PG (and, they signed PG Haywoode Workman, who started 52 games for them in 93-94. He was decent, but he was no Penny). I would have taken Hardaway if I was them.

Also, without the Magic in the lottery, maybe the movie Blue Chips is different because the Poston Brothers don't feel like they have to get Penny on that movie.

 

[kinnikuniverse]

Actually, in this scenario, the Magic would make the playoffs, so they wouldn't be in the lottery (and wouldn't get Penny). The Pacers would have missed instead, so they may have gotten the lucky lottery ball that the Magic got, and a chance at Hardaway or Webber.

Who would they have taken (if they won)? Webber was the consensus #1 player, but the Pacers had Dale Davis (and would sign the other half of the Davis Brothers that off-season) at PF, and Pooh Richardson at PG (and, they signed PG Haywoode Workman, who started 52 games for them in 93-94. He was decent, but he was no Penny). I would have taken Hardaway if I was them.

Also, without the Magic in the lottery, maybe the movie Blue Chips is different because the Poston Brothers don't feel like they have to get Penny on that movie.

Crap, i forgot that antonio davis played for the pacers. I'm from canada, and i always thought he always palyed for the raptors. Yeah, with the davis brothers and, later, jalen rose at the front court, PG would be the biggest need, and reggie would welcome the fact that he won't be doing everything on offense, for once. Plus, he doesn't have an ego the size of shaq, so he would be able to cooperate with penny.

What i worry the most is that, for all the offensive talent that penny has, his defensive game is rather average, especially since larry bird is a defense-minded coach. Then again, despite that, reggie thrived offensively, and with penny taking a big part of the offensive load off his shoulder, reggie would play in a more efficient manner. I can easily see the scheme being the davis bros, jalen and, later, jermaine o'neal and artest do the dirty work, giving space and time for reggie and penny to shine. It also helps that jalen can be a decent 3rd scoring option.

As for a title? Meh, i don't know...maybe 1998 1999, as i believe that with penny in his prime, they would've beaten the knicks and win the finals agaisnt the spurs. That team only had robinson and duncan, and the spurs became alot better when manu and tony parker arrived, so if there was a year where the reggie and penny pacers could win the title, it would be 1998 1999.

 

[Colonel Zoidberg]

Really cool idea of the PCL merging with MLB like the AFL and NFL.



He would still have the battle with Vida Blue and others. The club likely wins the next 2 Series but doesn't lose Catfish Hunter in 1975... but Boston still wins the pennant in '95 since they swept the A's as it was.

There are probably several players who leave in free agency. Maybe not all - ironically, Vida Blue stayed OTL. But, who buys them? Haas a decade early, maybe?

How long Could they keep enough players that they go for one last division title and then beat the Yankees? They'd still lose to the Reds, but it would be an interesting way to end the dynasty, sort of a 1970s version of The Last Dance.

Keeping the Raiders inL.A. would also impact the A's, perhaps they renovate the Coliseum so it's more clearly baseball only, without the crazy amount of foul territory.

As for socialism in American sports, there seems to be some desire to make sure teams remain competituve - this happened way back in the early '30s when the PHillies were given money, even if it was a loan it was still help the majors didn't have to do, in order to stay afloat. I think it was in 1931. The NFL did expand and contract in the 1920s-1940s.

Thanks.

Also, your thought experiment (if the Raiders stay in LA, what happens to the A’s stadium) got the wheels turning to piggyback off my last post.

How would a PCL-MLB merger affect the NFL?

Seems like a silly enough question, but the effects may be sooner and intriguing. For one, a PCL-MLB merger provides both a model for absorption of a competitor league and an assurance that it can be done relatively painlessly. The outcome of this is a sooner Super Bowl AND a sooner full merger.

This would thrill Browns fans, since the 1964 NFL champion OTL was the Cleveland Browns. This means that, if we accelerate the AFL-NFL Championship by two years, the first such game is between the Browns and the Bills. I’d pick the Browns to win that one, but since the Bills repeated as AFL champs OTL, they stand to do it TTL and actually pull off a win in the next one over the Packers.

This means a faster merge, and with the Falcons and Dolphins joining in 1966, it means a merge with just 24 teams. I think it would be the same three teams swapping; Rosenbloom didn’t give a shit and was happy to take the money to jump, the Steelers sucked something awful, and the fit with the Browns was perfect. The later addition of the Bengals would round out the division, but the actual shakedown may be different. I’m picturing either the Bills or Dolphins in the Central to round out the original 12 since the Bengals wouldn’t yet be a thing. And if there’s no Saints yet, the best answer in the NFC is to put the Cowboys and Cardinals in the West, the Falcons to join the Giants, Eagles and Washington in the East, and form the Central we know. So this averts the Cowboys’ rivalry with the East and probably intensifies the one with the 49ers, and it averts the Bills-Dolphins rivalry either way (the Bills moving works better geographically but the Dolphins wouldn’t have the history. Since the Bills would be defending champions twice over, they probably would have enough clout to stay in the East.

The Saints would work in the Central or West in the NFC, freeing up the East to take the Buccaneers when the time came. Assuming it’s the West just for geographic convenience for the likes of Dallas. The time will probably also come sooner, say, the early 70s.

The WFL probably doesn’t last long enough to force a merger, but the USFL might get a few teams in the way the ABA and WHA did. Assuming the Colts still move to Indy and the Raiders to LA (not sure how you stop Davis from that when the league said no and he straight-up told them to go fuck themselves and did it anyway) this means vacancies in Oakland and Baltimore.

The surviving USFL teams end up being in Baltimore, NJ, Jacksonville and Arizona; probably the best way to get there would be to have people ignore Trump when he wanted to move to the fall right away. So by 1989, the NFL has 32 teams and is forced to realign.

The AZ Outlaws, Jacksonville Bulls and Baltimore Stars stay put, but the NJ Generals have to fight to stick around. Trump ultimately sells out and the team is moved to...shit, I dunno, Oakland or Nashville or Charlotte or Portland or maybe Memphis.

I’ll put them in Nashville with the Cardinals moving to Memphis.

This means that AZ and Nashville go to the NFC with Baltimore and Jacksonville going to the AFC.

This means that, in 1989 or so, the league looks like this.

AFC East
Buffalo Bills
Indianapolis Colts
New England Patriots
New York Jets

AFC North
Cincinnati Bengals
Cleveland Browns
Houston Oilers
Pittsburgh Steelers

AFC South
Baltimore Stars
Jacksonville Bulls
Kansas City Chiefs
Miami Dolphins

AFC West
Denver Broncos
Los Angeles Raiders
San Diego Chargers
Seattle Seahawks

NFC East
Atlanta Falcons
New York Giants
Philadelphia Eagles
Washington Redskins

NFC North
Chicago Bears
Detroit Lions
Green Bay Packers
Minnesota Vikings

NFC South
Memphis Cardinals
Nashville Generals
New Orleans Saints
Tampa Bay Buccaneers

NFC West
Arizona Outlaws
Dallas Cowboys
Los Angeles Rams
San Francisco 49ers

The AFC later adds the Carolina Panthers and the NFC the St. Louis Stallions in 1993. There’s relative peace until 1995. The Raiders move make to Oakland, but the Rams, with no St. Louis to go to, decide to sit tight in LA, having the city to themselves.

Where it gets a little crazy is when the Browns and Oilers are kicking around relocation. With few viable options in the US and a likely CFL intrusion south of the border, the NFL allows the Browns to move to Toronto and begin playing in SkyDome. They call themselves the Huskies. Following suit (and replacing a CFL franchise that wasn’t there for a long time,) the Oilers head north to Montreal and rebrand as the Skyhawks (basically a stronger equivalent of Skylarks, the English translation of Alouettes, and no way does any NFL team want to brand itself after a bird that gets plucked in a song sung by French school kids.)

After a few years of a WTF alignment of a team in Montreal being in the AFC South, the NFL adds the Cleveland Browns back and the Houston Texans right on schedule. The Seahawks agree to move to the NFC and join the West, so the NFL looks like this in 2002.

AFC East
Buffalo Bills
Indianapolis Colts
New England Patriots
New York Jets

AFC North
Cincinnati Bengals
Cleveland Browns
Montreal Skyhawks
Pittsburgh Steelers
Toronto Huskies

AFC South
Baltimore Stars
Carolina Panthers
Houston Texans
Jacksonville Bulls
Miami Dolphins

AFC West
Denver Broncos
Kansas City Chiefs
Oakland Raiders
San Diego Chargers

NFC East
Atlanta Falcons
New York Giants
Philadelphia Eagles
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Washington Redskins

NFC North
Chicago Bears
Detroit Lions
Green Bay Packers
Minnesota Vikings

NFC South
Memphis Cardinals
Nashville Generals
New Orleans Saints
St. Louis Stallions

NFC West
Arizona Outlaws
Dallas Cowboys
Los Angeles Rams
San Francisco 49ers
Seattle Seahawks

Again, some peace for about a decade until the NFL gets antsy with expansion and Stan Kroenke gets fed up with St. Louis (yeah, the bastard still buys the St. Louis franchise.) He and Spanos, the other bastard, get in League with Mark Davis and Shahid Khan and move their franchises to Europe. The Stallions take London, the Raiders to Rome and the Chargers to Barcelona. They add a team in Berlin to go with Vegas, San Juan and Mexico City. The Colts undertake a move of their own - to the NFC while the AFC shoves all the Europe teams into a division. The NFC has an international division of their own that’s a mess, but the rest of the league works out well.

AFC East
Buffalo Bills
Montreal Skyhawks
New England Patriots
New York Jets

AFC North
Cincinnati Bengals
Cleveland Browns
Pittsburgh Steelers
Toronto Huskies

AFC South
Baltimore Stars
Carolina Panthers
Jacksonville Bulls
Miami Dolphins

AFC West
Denver Broncos
Houston Texans
Kansas City Chiefs
Las Vegas Royals

AFC Europe
Barcelona Chargers
Berlin Blazers
London Stallions
Rome Raiders

NFC East
Indianapolis Colts
New York Giants
Philadelphia Eagles
Washington Team of Football

NFC North
Chicago Bears
Detroit Lions
Green Bay Packers
Minnesota Vikings

NFC South
Atlanta Falcons
Memphis Cardinals
Nashville Generals
Tampa Bay Buccaneers

NFC West
Dallas Cowboys
Los Angeles Rams
San Francisco 49ers
Seattle Seahawks

NFC International
Arizona Outlaws
Mexico City Aztecs
New Orleans Saints
San Juan Hurricanes

 

[mrcubfan415]

This means that, in 1989 or so, the league looks like this.

Why not have the Colts in the AFC North, the Oilers in the South, and the Stars in the East?

 

[Colonel Zoidberg]

Why not have the Colts in the AFC North, the Oilers in the South, and the Stars in the East?

Historic rivalries, mainly. The Colts and Oilers are with their postmerge rivals and the Stars go where there’s room.

 

[flippikat]

Spotted on R/NRL (Reddit NRL Rugby League newsgroup)

Credit to Reddit user Monkey_Pirate_Lord :



Imagining the NRL Over the Past two Decades if the Grand Final Loser Won


Inspired by this idea over on /r/nba and /r/afl thought it would be fun to do with the NRL now too.

For the sake of sanity scores will just be switched, assuming team performances are mirrored. Man of the match will be awarded to the real winners opposite number. Any player/coach movement (e.g. Cronk to Roosters, Bennett leaving Broncos etc) will still happen and any GF results prior to 2000 will be as per normal.

2000: Roosters 14 def. Broncos 6

Roosters win their first title in 25 years and Freddy gets his first with the Roosters (and 2nd overall). Broncos miss out on getting 3 in 4 years, with Bennett losing his first as a coach after winning the previous 4.
Clive Churchill Medal (CCM = Man of the match) - Luke Philips

2001: Eels 30 def. Knights 24

After a stellar season the Eels deliver when it counts and secure their first premiership since 86 after holding off a spirited Knights comeback. Hindmarsh gets a ring, as does Brett Hodgson and Jamie Lyon. Knights players like Danny Buderus miss out and will not get another chance. CCM - Jason Taylor

2002: Warriors 30 def. Roosters 8

Warriors win their first title sending NZ into raptures. Ivan Cleary and Stacey Jones get a ring. Roosters miss out on going 2 in 3 years. CCM - Awen Guttenbeil

2003: Roosters 18 def. Panthers 6

The Roosters avenge their loss from the previous year and win their 2nd title in 4 years. Panthers miss out after waiting for a chance since 91. Players like Ryan Girdler and Craig Gower miss out. CCM - Michael Crocker

2004: Roosters 16 def. Bulldogs 13

Roosters go back to back, the first team since the 97/98 Broncos to do so. Freddy gets his 3rd ring with the Roosters and retires. Ricky Stuart wins second title as coach. Bulldogs are runners up in their first grand final since 98, players like Willie Mason and SBW miss out. CCM - Peter Cusack

2005: Cowboys 30 def. Tigers 16

Cowboys win their first premiership with Thurston getting a ring 10 years earlier than the real timeline. Matt Bowen also gets one. Tigers miss out on their first chance since 89. Players like Benji Marshall and Robbie Farah do not get another chance. CCM - Jonathan Thurston

2006: Storm 15 def. Broncos 8

A Storm outfit led by a fresh faced Cam Smith, Billy Slater, Cooper Cronk and Greg Inglis win the Storm their 2nd overall title, but it is later stripped following salary cap breaches. Lockyer will not get another chance and will eventually retire with 2 rings instead of 4. CCM - Cameron Smith

2007: Eagles 34 def. Storm 8

Storm are unable to go back to back and Eagles pick up their first title since 96. The Stewart brothers get a ring and Lyon gets another after winning with the Eels. Des Hasler gets his first title as coach. CCM - Jamie Lyon

2008: Storm 40 def. Eagles 0

Storm avenge the previous years loss and thrash the Eagles by 40 points, even without Smith. However as with 2006 the title is later stripped due to cap breaches and the biggest margin in grand final history is stricken from the record. CCM - Jeff Lima

2009: Eels 23 def. Storm 16

Eels win their second title of the decade, Hindmarsh gets his 2nd ring, while Jarryd Hayne and Tim Mannah get one as well. Storm lose their 2nd grand final whilst breaching the cap. CCM - Jarryd Hayne

2010: Roosters 32 def. Dragons 8

Braith Anasta captains his side to premiership glory. Wayne Bennett’s move to coaching the Dragons from the Broncos comes up just short. Todd Carney and BJ Leilua get a ring and a few other big name Roosters like Jake Friend and JWH get one, but will not get another to date. CCM - Anthony Minichello

2011: Warriors 24 def. Eagles 10

Warriors triumph to win their 2nd title, downing the Eagles. Simon Mannering and Sean Johnson get a ring, as does James Maloney, who will not win another. Ivan Cleary wins a title as coach. CCM - Michael Luck

2012: Bulldogs 14 def. Storm 4

Michael Ennis leads the Dogs to a title, their first since 95. Josh Jackson, James Graham, Josh Reynolds and Ben Barba get a ring. Finucane gets his first with the Dogs as well. Storm still looking for a 2nd title. CCM - Kris Keating

2013: Eagles 26 def. Roosters 18

After losing their previous 2 grand finals the Eagles get their first since 07. DCE and Foran get a ring, as does Geoff Toovey as coach. SBW misses out again. Mitchell Pierce wins man of the match despite playing on the losing side. CCM - Mitchell Pierce

2014: Bulldogs 30 def. Rabbitohs 6

Dogs get their 2nd in 3 years even missing Ennis through injury and Souths fail to break their 40+ year drought. David Klemmer gets a ring and Hasler gets his 2nd as Dogs coach. Greg Eastwood goes down in folklore by fracturing his cheekbone in the first hit up and goes on to win man of match. Greg Inglis misses out and will eventually retire with zero rings. CCM - Greg Eastwood

2015: Broncos 17 def. Cowboys 16

Broncos get their first title since 98. Skipper Justin Hodges goes out a winner. Darius Boyd gets a ring after missing out twice before. Anthony Milford also gets a ring, as does Ben Hunt, who slots the game winning field goal in golden point after Thurston fumbles a kickoff. Bennett wins another title as coach after losing the previous 3. CCM - Ben Hunt

2016: Storm 14 def. Sharks 12

Storm at long last get their 2nd (legitimate) title in a tense match. Smith and Cronk get their first ring (again), but Slater still misses out through injury. After 50 years of waiting the porch light stays on for the Sharks. Players like Paul Gallen miss out and Luke Lewis and Chris Heighington miss out on their second chance and will not get another. CCM - Kevin Proctor

2017: Cowboys 34 def. Storm 6

After barely scraping into the finals the Cowboys shock the nigh unstoppable Storm from going back to back in one of the all time upsets. Thurston is unable to chase away the demons of 2015 due to injury but Michael Morgan, Gavin Cooper and Jason Taumalolo still get their ring. CCM - Lachlan Coote

2018: Storm 21 def. Roosters 6

Storm get their 2nd in 3 years, even after Cronk defects to the Roosters. Slater finally gets a (legitimate) ring and retires, while Finucane gets his 4th. CCM - Cameron Munster

2019: Raiders 14 def. Roosters 8

Led by Jarrod Croker and coached by Ricky Stuart, the Raiders break their drought and win their first title since 94. Roosters come up short for the second year running and Cronk retires with 1 ring and having lost 3 grand finals in a row. Keary wins man of the match in a losing side. CCM - Luke Keary

2020: Panthers 26 def. Storm 20

The Panthers put 22 unanswered points on and hold off a Storm comeback to win their first title since 91. James Tamou and Apisai Korosau get rings after missing out in 15 and 14 respectively. Ivan Cleary gets his 2nd ring as a coach and takes the his son to Maccas on the way home. CCM - Dylan Edwards

Summary:

Roosters still have 4, with the Freddy years (3 from 4) being more successful than more recent team Friend (1 from 4)

Eels, Warriors and Bulldogs end up with 2 titles each instead of 1 between them.

Manly still have 2 wins and 2 losses

Cowboys have 2 instead of 1

Storm have 2 instead of 3. 2 other wins are still stripped, this time at the expense of the Broncos and Manly (again).

Raiders have 1 instead of zero

Panthers break even with 1 win and 1 loss

Broncos get 1 win and 2 losses, instead of the opposite

Tigers, Bunnies, Dragons, Knights and Sharks miss out on their only chances

------

 

[Nivek]

what if the raiders got elway as Al Davis almost got him via trade?

 

[Calcaterra]

what if the raiders got elway as Al Davis almost got him via trade?

Probably one of my favorite Sports WI scenarios, I'm very curious as to the possibilities. With those teams, and Marcus Allen (and maybe even Bo Jackson if butterflies don't get in the way), I think Elway will have to wait a lot less time to get a ring.