Speed is armour! January 1915.

Beer

Banned
Hi! Once again, your shooting practice won´t help as much as you believe. Before Skaggerak the british BC force had some practice and it still did not help them very much! During the first part of the BC battle, 1. Scouting sunk 2 british BC, damaged 2 others heavily and got only a few minor hits!
And before you come with the QEs: With the arrival of the QEs, Hipper was outnumbered 8:5 since 2 BCs already sunk, during the time it was 6:5 against him, the HSF did very well.
Devolved, once more: The reason why here is such a "HSF-worship" is the fact that any time the RN and the HSF met in battle and the odds were halfway equal, the HSF came out better.
Most of your comparisions why the RN did always better lack something. At Falkland, the german ACs fought british BCs, hardly a fair fight.
At Doggerbank and Skaggerak the HSF forces were outnumbered rather badly. So HSF ship losses even with her superior ships were logical.
BUT: As said, any time HSF and RN met on halfway equal terms, like at Coronel or the first BC fight at Jutland, the HSF won with minor damge to her ships.
 
But the one thing that Dave in St Louis is skimming over is that there ARE LESS German shells flying in the British direction. German shooting doesn't have to get worse. It just has to be less intense.

I don't believe that I have skimmed over it. I've simply stated that if you throw more British BCs at 1st Scouting, as some have suggested, that no one on any side will believe that it was anything more than simply being overwhelmed. At the extreme case, we were up to 64 British guns to 28 German ones (with every British gun being at least as large as the biggest German ones).

And if we simply follow your scenario, I think HMS Lion still gets knocked out of line by SMS Derfflinger.

I just don't see a realistic way to get to Fisher's gloating rant.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi, Dave! It seems someone, we all know the nickname, wants to do a Limeywank but with insufficient tools.
We can state as often as we want facts and elaborated guesses, it goes on as before.
To get the curbstomp with Fisher grinning like an idiot, you just can´t let the RN bring out the whole BC force against Hipper´s 3 BCs/1AC, because anyone without blinders would see that it would be a crushing under overwhelming numbers, nothing more. Besides, if chased by such a force, Hipper would, hell he had to leave Blücher behind to save the precious other ships. And there is no way the british BCs could catch Hipper in sufficient numbers to curbstomp him. Moltke can outrun anything the Brits had at Doggerbank and it´s highly debatable if they could catch an all flank Derfflinger and Seydlitz with more than 1 or two ships, if at all.

To get the proposed Fisher, Beatty has to crushing win with the OTL force and this is just impossible. Ship for ship, Hipper has better "Battlewagons", superior gunnery and as many maritime experts said, if forced to fight, Hipper would have won. This is not "HSF-worship", based on OTL fights, any time the RN did not have far superior numbers or forces, the HSF came out the winner. (See Coronel and 1. BC battle at Jutland)
 
Hi, Dave! It seems someone, we all know the nickname, wants to do a Limeywank but with insufficient tools.
We can state as often as we want facts and elaborated guesses, it goes on as before.
To get the curbstomp with Fisher grinning like an idiot, you just can´t let the RN bring out the whole BC force against Hipper´s 3 BCs/1AC, because anyone without blinders would see that it would be a crushing under overwhelming numbers, nothing more. Besides, if chased by such a force, Hipper would, hell he had to leave Blücher behind to save the precious other ships. And there is no way the british BCs could catch Hipper in sufficient numbers to curbstomp him. Moltke can outrun anything the Brits had at Doggerbank and it´s highly debatable if they could catch an all flank Derfflinger and Seydlitz with more than 1 or two ships, if at all.

To get the proposed Fisher, Beatty has to crushing win with the OTL force and this is just impossible. Ship for ship, Hipper has better "Battlewagons", superior gunnery and as many maritime experts said, if forced to fight, Hipper would have won. This is not "HSF-worship", based on OTL fights, any time the RN did not have far superior numbers or forces, the HSF came out the winner. (See Coronel and 1. BC battle at Jutland)

Overlooking the really cheap use of limey that I guess shows the real mentality behind your opinions I didn't imply that Fisher would be right to gloat.

The victory would be due to luck. But since when has that stopped people taking the credit.

I also think the Fisher philosophy was flawed. I do think the german ships are better.

So don't worry, you can still feel happy staring at the Bismarck screen saver on your computer.
 
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