Spartakist victory, Bolshevik faliure

Let's say, somehow, the Spartacus League succeded in overthrowing the ITTL short-lived Weimar Republic, while meanwhile the Provisional Government under Kerensky learns of the Bolshevik uprising beforehand and puts an end to it before it begins. Lenin and Trotsky are arrested by soldiers storming Bolshevik positions in Petrograd and are killed in custody.
  • Do the French, British, and Americans intervene in Germany like they did in Russia? If so, do they succeed?
  • Do the German communists attempt to exercise the same degree of control over foreign communist parties as the Soviet Union IOTL?
  • Does some analog of the Great Depression happen?
  • Would this communist Germany support Bela Kun's communist government in Hungary?
  • Does the Russian Provisional Government survive?
  • Is the Red Scare worse? Not as bad?
  • Is there still a Communist Party in Russia?
 
that is what my mod is about: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?539095-Upcoming-Mod-A-World-To-Win

Yes, the Red Scare would be huge. Bigger then our history's Red Scare. And the Fascist movement would be big also.

I'm sorry but if the Bolshevik revolution failed then what would be the point of a "Red Germany?" The whole point of Lenin's much anticipated Russian October Revolution was to start a chain reaction of violent revolutions across Europe. The idea was that Russia would also help spread the revolution first through Poland(in order to get to Germany to help the German comrades take power) and also to aide nearby Hungary, which was struggling to fend off a Romanian assault, which historically the Bolshevik Red Army failed to stem.

No doubt the French would at least intervene. Again my mod covers this all.

Of course the Great Depression would happen. It has nothing to do with a successful revolution in Germany.

If you want the German revolution to succeed, then I'm sorry the Provisional Government does not survive.

Yes, there still would be a CP leading Russia.

No doubt Stalin(if he still rises to power) would use his military muscle to dominate Europe just like he did to Eastern Europe in our world. So yes, Russia, not Germany, would be calling the shots.
 
that is what my mod is about: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?539095-Upcoming-Mod-A-World-To-WinI'm sorry but if the Bolshevik revolution failed then what would be the point of a "Red Germany?" The whole point of Lenin's much anticipated Russian October Revolution was to start a chain reaction of violent revolutions across Europe. The idea was that Russia would also help spread the revolution first through Poland(in order to get to Germany to help the German comrades take power) and also to aide nearby Hungary, which was struggling to fend off a Romanian assault, which historically the Bolshevik Red Army failed to stem.

Why can't German communists succeed where their Russian counterparts fail? Both countries were ripe for revolution. Interesting things about this TL concept:

-Marx will be vindicated. He expected revolution from an urban, industrial country, not peripheries like Russia and China. This combined with the first successful revolution in his home country will make him even more central to socialism.
-From this follows: communism will be more urban and industrial in character. Expect revolutions to be more likely in other urban states and less likely in more rural states. England and France will fear even more than OTL. Marxism will be just as powerful as an anticolonial ideology, especially when Germany gets in conflict with the Entente.
-Communism will have a German character. Certain issues will be linked, especially Anschluss with Austria, which the communists will likely support (Austria's social democratic party supported Anschluss before Hitler took power). As OTL, Germany may give up certain land claims for Realpolitik reasons, but push others. Italy being fascist, a Communist Greater Germany will want South Tyrol, but may not care about the Sudetenland if they have a good relationship with Czechslovakia, for example.
-Related: expect a major cleavage between workers-of-the-world communists and German nationalist communists. The latter will have some characteristics of OTL Nazis, though the unreformed right wing will be virulently anti-communist.
-Fascism may be more common west of Germany. It will be thought that the lesson Germany taught is that a democratic republic cannot stave off the Red tide. Expect fascism in France. Antisemitism will be more common in the rest of the world as well, because many of the German communists will be Jews.
-The Great Depression is, as History_Pintobean says, coming along as OTL. How the communists react will determine their legitimacy.

Something I have often thought about is what flag a Sparticist Germany would have. I hope not the OTL Soviet flag, but it is perhaps possible. They would, might retain the 1848 colors, but probably would not keep the basic tricolor. The Red Flag will continue to be used, but not as the national flag. I would expect a 2:1 red flag with a yellow and black symbol or symbols in the center or the canton. Options would include a hammer, a sickle, a compass, wheat (both as in OTL East Germany's flag), a gear, a fist, a scythe, stars, a weapon, and goodness knows what else. Heck, it could even be that two-headed eagle with a hammer in one hand and a sickle in the other, though I don't imagine they'd co-opt monarchist symbols.
 
-Communism will have a German character.
Maybe instead of talking about "Soviets", you'll hear people talk about "Rats"

Something I have often thought about is what flag a Sparticist Germany would have. I hope not the OTL Soviet flag, but it is perhaps possible. They would, might retain the 1848 colors, but probably would not keep the basic tricolor. The Red Flag will continue to be used, but not as the national flag. I would expect a 2:1 red flag with a yellow and black symbol or symbols in the center or the canton. Options would include a hammer, a sickle, a compass, wheat (both as in OTL East Germany's flag), a gear, a fist, a scythe, stars, a weapon, and goodness knows what else. Heck, it could even be that two-headed eagle with a hammer in one hand and a sickle in the other, though I don't imagine they'd co-opt monarchist symbols.

Sadly, The spartakist, as far as I can tell, used red flags, some with the hammer and sickle although if the russian revolution failed it wouldn't be an issue. They would, after all, be the first one to use it as a *National* flag. Otherwise, maybe go with the easy way out of a red star on the republic colours ?

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A major concern is whether they abide by the Versailles Treaty. I very much doubt it; no Communist government facing imminent intervention by the Allies would possibly keep their army at 100,000. Maybe they strike a deal with the Allies to abide by Versailles in exchange for recognition?
 
On Russia failing

Well it would be some kind of soclialist government in Russia, Kerensky didn't have the support or the strenght to fight all the factions. If the Bolsheviks fail the Mensheviks are in. In that case the USSR might not be as extreme, but they'd still try and support the Germans. Though for the Mensheviks to win you have to kill Trotsky
 
not to be rude, but the problem with this thread is it presupposes that a Spartakist Germany could survive without Soviet Russian support.

I repeat: The entire point of Lenin's October Revolution was to open up a pathway for violent revolution abroad in Europe which may have eventually culminated in a world revolution.

This was to be accomplished by Invading Poland to both gain territory that was historically part of the Russian Empire, as well as to serve as a nexus between Germany and Russia. Red Army troops were to deploy directly to Germany to help the Spartakists fight the main German army.

Plus, don't forget Hungary and Italy etc etc, which if they too succeeded it is important to know that without Soviet Russian support they would have faltered amid extreme diplomatic and economic isolation.

No, a Communist victory cannot happen without the Soviets succeeding too. It just can't happen.

One thing to note that if the German revolution succeeded, Lenin claimed he would usher in more democracy, after which he claimed that Russia was too backwards for actual existing democracy. It remains to be seen how that could have turned out.

Stalin no doubt would have tried to takeover after Lenin's death regardless though, and no doubt he would have ruled the Socialist states in Europe with an iron fist much like he did to Eastern Europe in real life.
 
not to be rude, but the problem with this thread is it presupposes that a Spartakist Germany could survive without Soviet Russian support.

I repeat: The entire point of Lenin's October Revolution was to open up a pathway for violent revolution abroad in Europe which may have eventually culminated in a world revolution.

This was to be accomplished by Invading Poland to both gain territory that was historically part of the Russian Empire, as well as to serve as a nexus between Germany and Russia. Red Army troops were to deploy directly to Germany to help the Spartakists fight the main German army.

Plus, don't forget Hungary and Italy etc etc, which if they too succeeded it is important to know that without Soviet Russian support they would have faltered amid extreme diplomatic and economic isolation.

No, a Communist victory cannot happen without the Soviets succeeding too. It just can't happen.

One thing to note that if the German revolution succeeded, Lenin claimed he would usher in more democracy, after which he claimed that Russia was too backwards for actual existing democracy. It remains to be seen how that could have turned out.

I see what you mean. Why is it that the Bolsheviks are in so much better a position? To put it another way, why can Russia succeed without Germany, but Germany cannot succeed without Russia?

Stalin no doubt would have tried to takeover after Lenin's death regardless though, and no doubt he would have ruled the Socialist states in Europe with an iron fist much like he did to Eastern Europe in real life.

I'm skeptical of this. Stalin got his free hand in the east because of the outcome of the war against Germany. A Communist Germany might owe its existence to Russia, but it would never be a defeated power under occupation. A Germano-Soviet split might even occur, as with China IOTL.
 
Maybe instead of talking about "Soviets", you'll hear people talk about "Rats"

That'll go over well in the Anglosphere :p. "The Red Rats!"

Sadly, The spartakist, as far as I can tell, used red flags, some with the hammer and sickle although if the russian revolution failed it wouldn't be an issue. They would, after all, be the first one to use it as a *National* flag.

Part of my point is that this is their revolutionary flag-of-the-moment, but if the revolution succeeds they'll come up with something else. We don't use the Gadsden Flag as the flag of the United States, for instance. Well, the Tea Party does...

Otherwise, maybe go with the easy way out of a red star on the republic colours ?

Like this ?

Good on making those flags. I've done some myself in a similar vein (all pen-and-paper doodles, I'm afraid, nothing I can upload) but ultimately this approach doesn't do it for me. I'm thinking an entirely new design. If I knew what it was it would be up on the flag thread.
 
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