Spanish-wank: forever technological backwater world?

Yes, I've been reading Pavane where the Spanish Armada triumphed against England and invaded. The story set in 1980s but the world was VERY different. No electricity, no internal combustion engines, no airplanes, no nuclear power, nothing. The world stuck in medieval era for 400 years.

Now, although I know how "baddies" the Spanish Inquisition was against new scientific theory (geocentrism for example), does a Spanishwank world really need to be a low-tech, forever medieval Earth?

Is there a chance that Spanish Empire (or maybe, United Catholic Empire after Spain unites other nations) sponsored a technological era a la Victorian British Empire, or maybe as the United States?

Nuclear power in Spanish Empire? Stealth aircraft? Moon landing? Will that be impossible?

Thanks in advance!:):D
 

Arrix85

Donor
I don't know how long a spanish occupation of England could last, but about the technological aspect... I think to approach this matter it must be considered the cynical aspect about power, as long the inquisition is needed the spanish kings would keep it, but as soon as it outlasts its usefulness... bye bye. So I don't think the world that much less advanced.
 
OK, but for how long would the Inquisition be needed? Why they did exist after all? I don't mean about the reason of protecting the Christian way of life, but that specific event in history caused their formation?:)
 
Pavane is a textbook example of buying into the Weberian idea of Protestant science. It should be taken with a grain of salt. Bear in mind that modern developments did not stop in places like France, South Germany, Flanders, or Italy despite being Catholic. Spain's stagnation probably owes more to economics than ideology, too. Stuff may take a little longer without the extremely positive environment of Britain, but it would very likely still happen.
 
Pavane is a textbook example of buying into the Weberian idea of Protestant science. It should be taken with a grain of salt. Bear in mind that modern developments did not stop in places like France, South Germany, Flanders, or Italy despite being Catholic. Spain's stagnation probably owes more to economics than ideology, too. Stuff may take a little longer without the extremely positive environment of Britain, but it would very likely still happen.

Exactly.

If it weren't for the sudden inflow of New World gold and silver into Spanish coffers the Spanish would do better in the long run.

Also a less familial marriage policy would do wonders.
 
carlton_bach

More to the point the book has an underlying plot of repeating the history of Europe/the world but with arch-Catholic forces winning, to hide the fact that technology was being actively suppressed, at least in the public sphere. It was supposed to be after a nuclear war caused great devastation and had the highly dubious idea that delaying the learning of technology, then releasing it all at the end in a made rush gave more chance of avoiding another nuclear war. In the postscript at the end sent ~50 years after the revolt in England that set things off it mentions a modern society using technology released by 'Rome'.

The idea is pretty daft as without experience of gradually developing technology I would say war is far more likely. Also the idea of being able to so closely repeat history, let alone have a European dominated world and no clear signs of an earlier nuclear destruction.:eek:

From what I remember, as it's probably ~30 years since I read the book, it was rather a mix anyway, with the trackless steam trains alongside a country dominated by medieval castles as well as a strict Inquisition type organisation which was actually to prevent conflict and technical knowledge.

Steve

Pavane is a textbook example of buying into the Weberian idea of Protestant science. It should be taken with a grain of salt. Bear in mind that modern developments did not stop in places like France, South Germany, Flanders, or Italy despite being Catholic. Spain's stagnation probably owes more to economics than ideology, too. Stuff may take a little longer without the extremely positive environment of Britain, but it would very likely still happen.
 

abc123

Banned
Yes, I've been reading Pavane where the Spanish Armada triumphed against England and invaded. The story set in 1980s but the world was VERY different. No electricity, no internal combustion engines, no airplanes, no nuclear power, nothing. The world stuck in medieval era for 400 years.

Now, although I know how "baddies" the Spanish Inquisition was against new scientific theory (geocentrism for example), does a Spanishwank world really need to be a low-tech, forever medieval Earth?

Is there a chance that Spanish Empire (or maybe, United Catholic Empire after Spain unites other nations) sponsored a technological era a la Victorian British Empire, or maybe as the United States?

Nuclear power in Spanish Empire? Stealth aircraft? Moon landing? Will that be impossible?

Thanks in advance!:):D


IMO, off course that is possible. Spanish Inquisition was a sort of secret police, so not a barrier for science.
;)
 

abc123

Banned
Exactly.

If it weren't for the sudden inflow of New World gold and silver into Spanish coffers the Spanish would do better in the long run.

Also a less familial marriage policy would do wonders.


I agree completely.
Religon ( protestantism or catolism ) or Inquisition/no Inquisition doesn't mind there much.;)
 
Spain wasn't backwards due to Catholicism, but to several Spanish-related factors. A government that kept Spain in wars for almost 150 years, living on gold and silver from the New World while the spanish economy withered due to old structures, tax excemption of the Church (that on its height employed 1/3 of the population) and inefficient burecracy was the reason for Spain to fall from the position of superpower no 1, not religion.

I don't think science and technology were proscribed or hunted by the Spanish Inquisition. If you were an astronomer that spoke loudly of God, the stars and orbits the Inquistion may visit you, recommending not to speculate too freely - but you could build telescopes without any problem. Steam engines may be proscribed, but that would be more of "old power" against "new power" and was experienced in all countries that industrialized.

A Spain that succeded with the Armada would conquer England - the spanish army in the Netherlands were the best in the world at that time. But two factors would stop the Pavane scenario.
1) Imperial overstrech. Spain simply couldn't keep up with everything and would sooner or later be forced to abandon England, Netherlands etc just as IOTL.
2) Genetics. The Spanish Royal linage had begun to breed itself out of existance. Inbreeding at its "finest".
 
Pavane is a textbook example of buying into the Weberian idea of Protestant science. It should be taken with a grain of salt. Bear in mind that modern developments did not stop in places like France, South Germany, Flanders, or Italy despite being Catholic. Spain's stagnation probably owes more to economics than ideology, too. Stuff may take a little longer without the extremely positive environment of Britain, but it would very likely still happen.
Indeed look at how many things the French did first or contributed to significantly.

I'd also point out that it wasn't just new world silver. Yes it provided up to 1/5th of Spanish receipts, but a huge part of the tax burden fell on Castille alone which ran out of men and ran out of money to give after so long. Exhaustion played a big role in terms of what happened technologically there.
 

abc123

Banned
Spain wasn't backwards due to Catholicism, but to several Spanish-related factors. A government that kept Spain in wars for almost 150 years, living on gold and silver from the New World while the spanish economy withered due to old structures, tax excemption of the Church (that on its height employed 1/3 of the population) and inefficient burecracy was the reason for Spain to fall from the position of superpower no 1, not religion.

I don't think science and technology were proscribed or hunted by the Spanish Inquisition. If you were an astronomer that spoke loudly of God, the stars and orbits the Inquistion may visit you, recommending not to speculate too freely - but you could build telescopes without any problem. Steam engines may be proscribed, but that would be more of "old power" against "new power" and was experienced in all countries that industrialized.

A Spain that succeded with the Armada would conquer England - the spanish army in the Netherlands were the best in the world at that time. But two factors would stop the Pavane scenario.
1) Imperial overstrech. Spain simply couldn't keep up with everything and would sooner or later be forced to abandon England, Netherlands etc just as IOTL.
2) Genetics. The Spanish Royal linage had begun to breed itself out of existance. Inbreeding at its "finest".


That's right. I agree fully.
 
I think the original purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to root out Jews and Muslims. The Inquisition's effect of science would be to suppress intellectual freedom in general. I agree that the main reason for Spain's stagnation is that, due to American resources, it wasn't forced to change.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I think that we could quite well see a more technological developed world with Spanish victory. We would likely see England being split off from Spain together with the Netherlands. Beside that I think a Spanish victory in the 80Years War get more likely with a surviving armada. The following Habsburg Kings of England-Netherlands would likely embrace the Counter-Reformation rather than the Inquisition bringing the two states population back into the fold.
At this point it also important to remember that Netherlands and Spain was on the forefront with technology, agriculture and military tactics. So England suddenly get access to Dutch and Spanish know-how and the proto-industry in Netherlands get access to Englands raw materials and markets. What likely will follow are a economical boom.

Protestant refugees from Netherlands and England will bring capital and know-how with them to the states they flee too (much as the latter Huguenouts did). Which will help urbanise and develop the Protestant states along the Baltic and Rhine.

So what do we get:

A economical and military powerhouse made up of the United Netherlands and England.
A earlier introduction of potato, and Spanish/Dutch clover to England, the Baltic and Germany.
A greater urbanisation of Scandinavia and Germany (and a greater proto-industrialisation).

All these things will push toward a more developed world technological.
 
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