Spanish Protestants

[Cicero the Younger]

Is it possible to have a Protestant sect arise in or spread to Spain during the Reformation period and become large enough to become influential? It doesn't matter whether their tradition is Lutheran or Calvinist or what, and it certainly isn't necessary for the government itself to convert. In fact, that much probably is impossible, given the political realities of the time; even if a Protestant takes the Spanish throne, he'd probably have to at least pay lip service to Catholicism. (If even Henry IV had to become Catholic to rule France, a technically-Catholic but not very Rome-centered nation, then I doubt any Protestant could rule Spain.) Still, I'd like to see a Spanish Protestant sect become at least as large as the French Huguenots.

What would it take to get a sect large enough that the Inquisition couldn't stamp them out? Would the Inquisition itself have to be weakened for it to even be possible? And could groups of the Protestants sail to somewhere in the New World to found their own colonies to escape persecution--sort of a Spanish version of Puritan New England?

 

[Falastur]

You'd have to revert a lot of Spanish history to produce a government willing to let it happen. The reason that Protestant "sects" didn't arise in Spain wasn't that there wasn't enough interest, it was that Charles I's administration/the Inquisition were just too good at blocking off all avenues of approach for Protestants. Without the ability to get Protestant theologians into the country, with all Protestant texts burned and anyone so much as suspected of spreading Protestant thought locked up by Inquisitors and never heard from again, how can even the most popular religious group spread?

 

[marl_d]

probably could be possible if during the Spanish Reconquista one or both of the Aragon or Castile's are protestant, having been converted prior to it. Having a Protestant lead the Spanish to driving out the Moors would have made it palatable enough for the people to accept them. and with that you get rid of the Spanish Inquisition and the horrors associated with it.

 

[Cicero the Younger]

probably could be possible if during the Spanish Reconquista one or both of the Monarch's are protestant, having been converted prior to it. Having a Protestant lead the Spanish to driving out the Moors would have made it palatable enough for the people to accept them. and with that you get rid of the Spanish Inquisition and the horrors associated with it.

Converted to what? The Reconquista was completed in 1492, while the Reformation didn't begin till 1517. There were no viable alternatives in Western Christendom to Catholicism at the time the Moors were driven away.

 

[Thande]

Converted to what? The Reconquista was completed in 1492, while the Reformation didn't begin till 1517. There were no viable alternatives in Western Christendom to Catholicism at the time the Moors were driven away.

Well, there were the Lollards and the Hussites...you just need a similar movement to arise in Spain, although circumstances and the everyone-united-against-teh-evol-muslims-and-jews attitude does make it harder.

 

[marl_d]

Converted to what? The Reconquista was completed in 1492, while the Reformation didn't begin till 1517. There were no viable alternatives in Western Christendom to Catholicism at the time the Moors were driven away.

um...well there are the Waldense's, If a group of them get to Spain or save a spanish noble/monarch, maybe they convert and move from there...

 

[DrakeRlugia]

I thought the big reason the Reformation didn't take off in Spain was because under the Catholic monarchs the Church in Spain had already underwent a sort of reformation, where corruption was quashed, celibacy reinforced amongst the prelates (many of them had mistresses, iirc), resulting in the Catholic Church in Spain being better off.

 

[NothingNow]

I thought the big reason the Reformation didn't take off in Spain was because under the Catholic monarchs the Church in Spain had already underwent a sort of reformation, where corruption was quashed, celibacy reinforced amongst the prelates (many of them had mistresses, iirc), resulting in the Catholic Church in Spain being better off.

And The Inquisition.

 

[tormsen]

Well, there were the Lollards and the Hussites...you just need a similar movement to arise in Spain, although circumstances and the everyone-united-against-teh-evol-muslims-and-jews attitude does make it harder.

I've heard arguments that exposure to Islam helped encourage some of the facets of Protestantism, though I can't remember the details. Maybe a more rapid reconquista?

 

[proximefactum]

I've heard arguments that exposure to Islam helped encourage some of the facets of Protestantism, though I can't remember the details. Maybe a more rapid reconquista?

The Ottomans gave aid to the Calvinist Hungarians during the Ottoman movement towards Vienna in the 16th century. I doubt that the Ottoman aid to Protestants had anything to do with Islam. Rather, helping out the nascent Protestant movement in Eastern Europe was just one way of poking the eyes of the Vatican.

Given that the Iberian peninsula was well outside of Ottoman direct control, I doubt that the Ottomans would have been able to stir up a proxy Protestant vs. Catholic engagement in Spain.

 

[Cicero the Younger]

Well, I did specify there were no "viable" alternatives. I'm aware that there were proto-Protestant movements prior to Luther (where there is orthodoxy, there will be heresy), and that Luther was even influenced by them. But Protestantism as a major social force in Europe didn't open up until Luther came along. I did say in the OP that I wanted a Protestant denomination to take hold in Spain "during the Reformation period", which rules out pre-Reconquista Hussites or the equivalent. It might be harder to achieve, but I think that makes it more interesting. Spain remaining Catholic, but faced with a large enough percentage of their population turning to Lutheran or Calvinist ideas that they are forced to recognize that they can't simply wipe it out. There would still be persecution and probably even a "St. Somebody-or-Other's Day Massacre" or two, but the effects on Spanish life in the following centuries could be interesting, ¿no?

 

[Rakhasa]

Spain remaining Catholic, but faced with a large enough percentage of their population turning to Lutheran or Calvinist ideas that they are forced to recognize that they can't simply wipe it out. There would still be persecution and probably even a "St. Somebody-or-Other's Day Massacre" or two, but the effects on Spanish life in the following centuries could be interesting, ¿no?

Forced? in 1492 there were far more Jews in Spain than any posible number of protestants would ever convert. Fifty years later there was virtually no jew in Spain.

I am afraid than in your idea, everibody expects the spanish inquisition...

 

[Goldstein]

This is actually easier than most of people think, and it's a POD I've been thinking about for some time. The thing is, in the early 16th century, the teachings of Desiderius Erasmus were fairly spread and popular in Spain. I think it would take just a Spanish scholar of Erasmus that wants to go further and break with the Church.

It could be as well liked to the Revolt of the Comuneros of 1520, a proto-bourgoisie movement, making it more populist and successful. It could be a very interesting scenario, if you consider the Revolt of the Brotherhoods in Valencia: by the mid 16th Century, you would have an independent, Protestant and possibly Republican Castille; Valencia as a maritime republic that includes the Balearic islands; and rump catholic Aragon/Catalonia under the house of Hapsburg. The possibilities are enormous...

 

[Dan1988]

Even easier (but bloodier) than Goldstein's POD, though not technically "Protestant" as we would assume it would be. During the period prior to the Reconquista, the Mozarabic Rite had developed and for many Christians in al-Andalus, that was Christianity as they knew it. Have the Inquistion outlaw the Mozarabic Rite in favour of the Latin Rite, and - bam! - you automatically make thousands of Andalusians "Protestants". (Cue in anger from Rome/Avignon.)

 

[proximefactum]

Even easier (but bloodier) than Goldstein's POD, though not technically "Protestant" as we would assume it would be. During the period prior to the Reconquista, the Mozarabic Rite had developed and for many Christians in al-Andalus, that was Christianity as they knew it. Have the Inquistion outlaw the Mozarabic Rite in favour of the Latin Rite, and - bam! - you automatically make thousands of Andalusians "Protestants". (Cue in anger from Rome/Avignon.)

Didn't the Spanish impose the Tridentine liturgy on themselves after a while? It's true that during the promulgation of the new Missal Pope Pius V made an exception for liturgies that were two hundred or more years old. Nevertheless I'm almost certain that the liturgy of the Mozarabs was almost extinct by the 18th century. Yes, it's celebrated in the Cathedral of Toledo, but the Mozarabic Rite is essentially extinct.

Interesting, whatever remnant of the Mozarabic Rite that remained after the reconquista and Trent was eventually celebrated in Latin, not Arabic.

 

[Dan1988]

Didn't the Spanish impose the Tridentine liturgy on themselves after a while?

In TTL, it will be even bloodier.

Interesting, whatever remnant of the Mozarabic Rite that remained after the reconquista and Trent was eventually celebrated in Latin, not Arabic.

Well, Old Castilian, not Latin, but yeah - it had been that way from the very beginning.

 

[marl_d]

Well, I did specify there were no "viable" alternatives. I'm aware that there were proto-Protestant movements prior to Luther (where there is orthodoxy, there will be heresy), and that Luther was even influenced by them. But Protestantism as a major social force in Europe didn't open up until Luther came along. I did say in the OP that I wanted a Protestant denomination to take hold in Spain "during the Reformation period", which rules out pre-Reconquista Hussites or the equivalent. It might be harder to achieve, but I think that makes it more interesting. Spain remaining Catholic, but faced with a large enough percentage of their population turning to Lutheran or Calvinist ideas that they are forced to recognize that they can't simply wipe it out. There would still be persecution and probably even a "St. Somebody-or-Other's Day Massacre" or two, but the effects on Spanish life in the following centuries could be interesting, ¿no?

sorry, I had my dates mixed up. I think the biggest problem for Spain is being as xenophobic as they were. Anyone from outside of Spain wouldn't be looked on kindly bringing in new Idea's, especially as close as they were with Roman after the Treaty of Tordesillas that gave Spain half the world. any adoption of a protestant faith fly's squarely in the face of the Pope.

maybe plaquate Spanish Xenophobia and get rid of the Treaty or the treaty gives Portugal far more access to New World territories, and you'll have a pissed off Spain that is more likely to split with Rome

 

[Faralis]

What you really need its an earlier development of the printing press or at least a faster expansion in the peninsula, in OTL when arrived the state had too much control of it to allow the expansion of "non approved" ideas ... or a massive break with Rome, but this is more difficult because they more or the less controlled it ( any change in the religion has quite the chances to became orthodoxy ) .Maybe something along Henry VIII?