Spanish Japan

Condottiero · Oct 13, 2005

The defense of the Philippines relied in japanese mercenaries. We could have a daymio being hired to defend Manila from chinese or dutch pirates. The daymio and most of his troops convert and come back to Japan.

The daymio grows ambitious and receives some spanish supplies, maybe he could start trading with the Philippines and Mexico. He grows powerful and some other local lords join him, convert to catholicism and get trading advantages. Finally the daymio becomes shogun or even defies emperor...

However I do not see either an spanish ruled Japan. Although it would have been impressive see some allied samurais tercios in the 30YW.

Hierophant · Oct 13, 2005

You all realize that in the 1500s Spanish merchants and warships were forbidden from doing anything to slight the Japanese. The Spanish rightly feared what a war between the two in the Pacific would be like.

Hermanubis · Oct 13, 2005

How much could we change the population and technology level of Japan with early PODs? How much could this help?

NapoleonXIV · Oct 13, 2005

Hermanubis said:
How much could we change the population and technology level of Japan with early PODs? How much could this help?

As much as you want. It would be really interesting if the Japanese Islands were still inhabited only by the Ainu when the Europeans came.

Nicole · Oct 13, 2005

NapoleonXIV said:
As much as you want. It would be really interesting if the Japanese Islands were still inhabited only by the Ainu when the Europeans came.

But then all that happens is that Spain loses it's Pacific islands and Mexico to the mighty Ainu Empire... (Anything can happen with a POD that early...)

Wendell · Oct 13, 2005

I like the mercenary idea, but why would Japan get in on the Thirty Year's War, and how often might there be greater personal exchanges between Europe and Asia in TTL?

NapoleonXIV · Oct 14, 2005

Well this is an an idea I've explored before. It depends very much on the nature of the early Tokugawa. Ieyasu persecuted the Christians, but the Seclusion and the Sankin Kotai didn't begin unti the third Shogun in 1633 and 35. So it seems at least possible that Ieyasu might be amenable to the idea of exporting his most troublesome samurai as mercernaries.

OTOH one ongoing theme in the Tokugawa is that they feared their own daimyo more than they feared foreigners. A main reason for the Seclusion was to keep superior European gunpowder, and later superior gunpowder weapons, out of the hands of their own daimyo. So it may be doubtful that even Ieyasu would feel good about sending young and opportunistic possible rivals out to learn the latest warfare methods in Germany.

Condottiero · Oct 14, 2005

I know, but let's suppose Spain or the United Provinces are badly pressed during the 30YW, they need some more manpower. Japan is more open to European presence and some local japanese noblemen allow several thousand mercenaries to leave to europe in exchange for more fireweapons, naval technology or whatever.

Tocomocho · Oct 2, 2006

Hermanubis said:
Spanish Japan

(I swear I remember something like this, but can’t find it, so…)

Japan, perhaps by some strange fluke, is conquered by Spain. What happens? Does it become another Philippines? Does it become more Europeanized?

I was looking for this post to talk about a different POD, but quite similar. Around 1600 Spain had interest in Japan, not about its conquest, but about spreading commerce, political influence or -why not- Catholicism over the Japanese population. The Spaniards contacted very early with the Japanese in the Philippines, allowing they to settle there and even using Japanese sailors and mercenaries in some Spanish operations in Indochina during the 1590s. In 1609, the own Tokugawa Ieyasu met the survivors of a Spanish galleon sunk near Tokyo and signed a treaty that allowed the Spaniards to exploit mines in Japanese soil. The survivors worked together with Japanese sailors and naval engineers in the construction of a new galleon and in 1613 one Japanese diplomatic mission leaded by the samurai Hasekura Tsunenaga sailed for New Spain, Cuba and Europe. In their final stage the Japanese even met the "King Paolo of the Southern Barbarians" -the Pope Paul V- and accepted to convert to Christianity.

In his second voyage to Europe (1614) Hasekura formally offered a comercial agreement to the Philip III of Spain. However, the king refused to sign nothing while the Japanese were attacking the Christian missions in Japan. So, Hasekura finally returned to Japan in 1620 and apparently was killed because his Catholic faith. Japan broke commercial relations with Spain in 1623 and expelled the Spanish ambassador in 1624, retreating into isolationism.

So, what if the missionaries never were to Japan, or the Japanese didn't fear their influence? Could Japan became an ally of the Spanish Empire? Could the "Meiji" start in 1620? Could Japan invade Korea again in the 17th century, with Spanish support? Could be Japanese tercios in the 30 Years War?

WhatIsAUserName · Oct 3, 2006

Interesting possibililty for Japan to modernize this early. Might press China to pull something like this off if the Japanese successfully take Korea and attempt to move into Manchuria after a century or so. Of course, the Ming might not really care, but the later Qing might.