Spanish-American War 1860s

In 1861, President of the Dominican Republic, General Pedro Santana fearing economic collapse and threats from Haiti petitioned the the Spanish Government for annexation. With the United States in the midst of a Civil War and unable to enforce the Monroe Doctrine Spain went through with the annexation. This sparked a brutal guerrilla war that lasted until 1865. Spain withdrew due to a combination of high casualties, the war being extremely unpopular at home, and threat of potential American intervention with the ACW being over. But let's say Spain decided to remain in the DR leading to an American Intervention soon after. What would be the consequences of an earlier Spanish American War over the DR.
 
It depends on the year.
If it is before 1864, probably the USN could use a numerical superiority to force a favourable peace.
If it is after 1864, Spain can deploy the ironclad Numancia (one of the most powerful ships of the era) and end the war rather quickly.
 
It depends on the year.
If it is before 1864, probably the USN could use a numerical superiority to force a favourable peace.
If it is after 1864, Spain can deploy the ironclad Numancia (one of the most powerful ships of the era) and end the war rather quickly.
After 1864, the USN has a lot more than just one powerful ironclad, Numancia would not find easy going against Dictator or Dunderberg, or even New Ironsides with Numancia's battery of 68 pounders. They simply do not compare with 9 inch Dahlgrens, let alone the 11 and 15 inch guns common on US ships.

CSS Tennessee, with thicker, sloped iron armor and oak backing, was tore up by 15" shot at Mobile Bay.
 
It depends on the year.
If it is before 1864, probably the USN could use a numerical superiority to force a favourable peace.
If it is after 1864, Spain can deploy the ironclad Numancia (one of the most powerful ships of the era) and end the war rather quickly.
It would be after 1864, no way US intervenes with the ACW still going on.
 
In 1861, President of the Dominican Republic, General Pedro Santana fearing economic collapse and threats from Haiti petitioned the the Spanish Government for annexation. With the United States in the midst of a Civil War and unable to enforce the Monroe Doctrine Spain went through with the annexation. This sparked a brutal guerrilla war that lasted until 1865. Spain withdrew due to a combination of high casualties, the war being extremely unpopular at home, and threat of potential American intervention with the ACW being over. But let's say Spain decided to remain in the DR leading to an American Intervention soon after. What would be the consequences of an earlier Spanish American War over the DR.
What might that mean for Cuba ? Maybe There's an invasion aswell.
 
What might that mean for Cuba ? Maybe There's an invasion aswell.
It is very possible that an earlier war might result in an annexation of Cuba with enormous results from that.
Well with the War being fought over the DR I could see a similar attitude taken towards Cuba as the US had towards Puerto Rico in the OTL, so if the War was victorious for the US I could definitely see a potential annexation.
 
After 1864, the USN has a lot more than just one powerful ironclad, Numancia would not find easy going against Dictator or Dunderberg, or even New Ironsides with Numancia's battery of 68 pounders. They simply do not compare with 9 inch Dahlgrens, let alone the 11 and 15 inch guns common on US ships.

CSS Tennessee, with thicker, sloped iron armor and oak backing, was tore up by 15" shot at Mobile Bay.
The USS Dunderberg was not completed until sold to France, the Dictator had problems with her powerplant, it is not all about putting a big gun on a ship. It must be able to move and to sustain damage from the enemy.
 
The USS Dunderberg was not completed until sold to France, the Dictator had problems with her powerplant, it is not all about putting a big gun on a ship. It must be able to move and to sustain damage from the enemy.
Dictator did join the Blockade Squadron. Dunderberg was unneeded. War with Spain finishes that.

Do you have any records on Numancia in service as delivered by the French? She was modernized in 1870, and her combat career seems to have been against Peruvian shore batteries, where she had 40 killed and 160 wounded from a compliment of 540
 
The Ironclad Numancia ( https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numancia_(1864) ):

From 1864 to 1870 the armament consisted on thirty four 68 pounders (200 mm) and a ram. The iron protection was 130 mm thick. She had a top speed of 14 knots.

She participated in the Pacific war against the peruvian and chilean navies. In those years with very fast changes in the world navies the country that incorporated some of the latest battleships improved its position in the ranking of world navies. Spanish navy was fourth but chilean navy was very close. They had a really good navy.
She lead the attack on Valparaiso and then the battle of Callao where seven Spanish ships (the Numancia, 5 more frigates and one corvette) fought a peruvian navy with 2 monitors and 3 gunships and 56 land based guns. The outcome of the battle is not clear. If we take conservative sources of the era, the Peruvian forces suffered around 300 casualties and several batteries were damaged or destroyed and the Spanish navy suffered 43 dead, 83 wounded and 68 lighly wounded (most of them in one of the unarmoured frigates).
Given that the Numancia (and part of the fleet) returned Spain after circumnavegating the globe, I do not think the damage taken was serious.
Apart from that she participated in a weird civil war in Spain.


The Spanish Navy in the 1860s:

We have an american source of 1860
http://www.nytimes.com/1860/11/16/n...e-berenguela-spanish-vessels-gulf-mexico.html

However in a few years (as I mentioned) the composition would change from that to:

* From 1862 to 1868 we have the construction of the ironclads Numancia (40x68pd and 14 knots), Tetuan (40x68pd and 13 knots), Arapiles (2x250mm Armstrong, (4+1)x200mm Armstrong, 10x200mm and 12 knots) Vitoria (30x 68pd and 13 knots), Zaragoza, Sagunto (10x220mm Palliser, 3x180mm Palliser and 12,5 knots) y Mendez Núñez (4x220mm and 2x200mm, speed 11 knots)

* From 1855 to 1868 we have the steam frigates: Berenguela, Petronila, Princesa de Asturias, Blanca, Concepción (20x68pd, 8x32pd and 6x16pd and 12 knots), Lealtad (20x68pd, 8x32pd and 6x16pd and 11 knots), Nuestra Señora Del Triunfo (20x68pd, 14x32pd and 1x220mm and 11 knots), Resolución, Nuestra Sra. Del Carmen, Villa de Madrid (30x200mm, 14x160mm, 2x150mm and 15 knots), Gerona, Almansa (30x200mm, 14x160mm, 2x150 and 2x120mm and 12 knots), and Navas de Tolosa (30x200mm, 14x160mm, 2x150mm)

The US navy in the 1860s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Navy#1864–66 ) apparently had much more ships, but most of them unsuitable for a war on open sea.
It was a brown water navy, with lots of slow monitors. Yes, they had big guns, but in few numbers and unable to operate far from the US coastline.
If you pit that against an oceanic navy (of a similar size) of faster ships with more guns (although smaller), you have that the US navy would have to fight where the Spanish navy would dictate, concentrate on key areas of the american coastline to protect from Spanish raids or be destroyed ship by ship...
 
She had a top speed of 14 knots.
That was her speed after her 4th Modernization with new engines. Period writings credit her with 10 knots.

for Ironclad action. little of it was on the high seas but within miles of the coast or ports.

The French, British, Germans, Dutch and Russians were impressed when the double turreted Monitor USS Miantonomoh did her Tour of European Ports in 1866.

Why would you think that the USN Steam Frigates and Sloops were unsuitable for combat at sea?
 
No, her speed as armoured frigate was 14 knots, it was reduced to 10 after it was modified to a coastal ironclad.

The USN had also Steam Frigates and Sloops but they were inferior to Spanish counterparts.
 

Deleted member 9338

No, her speed as armoured frigate was 14 knots, it was reduced to 10 after it was modified to a coastal ironclad.

The USN had also Steam Frigates and Sloops but they were inferior to Spanish counterparts.

How were the American steam frigates inferior? They appear to do well enough at New Orleans and Mobile.
 
No, her speed as armoured frigate was 14 knots, it was reduced to 10 after it was modified to a coastal ironclad.

The USN had also Steam Frigates and Sloops but they were inferior to Spanish counterparts.
Cite?
Wikipedia isn't perfect. In the 19thC, much was wrote on the early ironclads. And you can get to most of that data thru Google Books.

Like books.google.com/books?/id=jRZFAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA253 indicates 10. Don't credit trials speed for service speed. It seems for her time in the Pacific, she was burdened with enough stores that she was displacing over 8000 tons.

Her repairs required the floating drydock at Cartagena, as Spain had no regular drydock of sufficient size available repairs in the New World, or even in Spain to repair her armor plate that was caved into her wood backing behind the armor from the action at Callao. After that combat, she was far enough away that might as well circle the Globe for a return to Spain and not worry about crossing the Straits of Megellan with damage at the waterline.

Would like to see your reasoning on why US Frigates and Sloops were inferior.
 
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Consequences:
Cuba becomes 1-3 states and joins the Union by 1900. Unlike PR which is substantially further out, it is close with a strong potential economy, good position for trade routes, and good strategic port for the US.

What would be interesting is how this impacts the annexation of Hawaii and the purchase of Alaska. I would imagine Hawaii still occurs, but Alaska cost money the US might not have after war costs with Spain.
 
Consequences:
Cuba becomes 1-3 states and joins the Union by 1900. Unlike PR which is substantially further out, it is close with a strong potential economy, good position for trade routes, and good strategic port for the US.

What would be interesting is how this impacts the annexation of Hawaii and the purchase of Alaska. I would imagine Hawaii still occurs, but Alaska cost money the US might not have after war costs with Spain.
In the event of an American victory I think any future annexation of Hawaii is off the table. In 1898 the Imperialists were able to force the annexation through partially on the basis that it would help fight the war. If the US wins in the 1860s there would presumably no longer be a real Spanish presence in the Caribbean thus eliminating potential for a future War for when the US is strong enough to act in the Pacific. Plus the Anti-Imperalists would probably be much stronger in the future if the US ended up annexing Cuba and dealing with decades of guerrilla warfare.
 
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