Spain Without New World Wealth?

New World gold was a short term benefit to Spain, but a long term problem. Obviously, having all this extra cash allowed Spain to buy a lot more than it otherwise could - more guns, more ships, etc.

But it created problems in the long term. Gold in and of itself is not wealth. True wealth is increased productive capacity. A gold supply in excess to the need to monetize that increased productivity simply leads to inflation which destroys economies. Also, being able to fund Spain's wars with New World gold meant the crown did not need to go to the Cortes (parliament). This meant Spain would never the institutions of strong government that the English and Dutch did (the same problem affected France whose sovereign had various direct taxes - like the hated gabelle - that enabled the king to do whatever he wanted). Therefore, Spain is likelier to develop a more effective government based on some kind of consent.

The big issue is that without that New World gold, what pays for all the wars against the Ottomans? The Ottomans were very powerful at that time, and the New World gold helped level the playing field.

The big problem with Spain controlling any African gold is that the climate is still petilential to Europeans. If Spain tries to control the western sudan, they will have immense mortality. I don't see Spain suceeding. Furthermore, involvement in Africa will bring them in conflict with the Portuguese.

Spain may concentrate on north Africa, and possibly conquer and keep control of a large part of the coastline. But the Ottomans are still going to be quite a threat for the next century or so.


For the ottoman's the solution is Austria, Poland, Russia, and Persia
 
New World gold was a short term benefit to Spain, but a long term problem. Obviously, having all this extra cash allowed Spain to buy a lot more than it otherwise could - more guns, more ships, etc.

But it created problems in the long term. Gold in and of itself is not wealth. True wealth is increased productive capacity. A gold supply in excess to the need to monetize that increased productivity simply leads to inflation which destroys economies. Also, being able to fund Spain's wars with New World gold meant the crown did not need to go to the Cortes (parliament). This meant Spain would never the institutions of strong government that the English and Dutch did (the same problem affected France whose sovereign had various direct taxes - like the hated gabelle - that enabled the king to do whatever he wanted). Therefore, Spain is likelier to develop a more effective government based on some kind of consent.

The big issue is that without that New World gold, what pays for all the wars against the Ottomans? The Ottomans were very powerful at that time, and the New World gold helped level the playing field.

The big problem with Spain controlling any African gold is that the climate is still petilential to Europeans. If Spain tries to control the western sudan, they will have immense mortality. I don't see Spain suceeding. Furthermore, involvement in Africa will bring them in conflict with the Portuguese.

Spain may concentrate on north Africa, and possibly conquer and keep control of a large part of the coastline. But the Ottomans are still going to be quite a threat for the next century or so.

Yeah I agree that without the gold Spain will be much weaker against the Ottomans, which is why I don't think expansion in North Africa would be a wise move. They would provoke a power that could easily pirate their coasts and raise huge armies.

A major source of wealth for Spain wasn't only the gold and silver of the Americas but also the Manila Galleons that traded with the east. Ottomans would still be the major traders with east asia. If Spain and Portugal go to war over the Guinea trade, then Muslims might maintain themselves overall as the only source of Spice trading (besides guinea pepper).
 
Morocco would be a pain and result in longterm unprofitably and couldn't really be sustainable. However the Guinea Coast could be very profitable if the Spanish put their full effort into dominating the trade in that region. In that case they would be butting heads with Portugal directly, and it might turn into a war.

Even if the annexation of the Morrocans would be unprofitable it is it's weight in Gold to destroy the Morrocan's for the Spainish
 
:cool:
Persia was defeated by the ottomans multiple times.

Poland has had an extremely small land border with the ottomans.

True but a stronger Ottoman empire might galvanize the Polish the Austrians and the Russians to become stronger. And the Polish did help the austrians sometimes against the ottomans. but the persians are going to see a chance and they are tacking it.
 
:cool:

True but a stronger Ottoman empire might galvanize the Polish the Austrians and the Russians to become stronger. And the Polish did help the austrians sometimes against the ottomans. but the persians are going to see a chance and they are tacking it.


I dont like shiny, metal covered slavs, they are annoying to look at.


Persia was battered multiple times by the ottomans. Even if they had a large concentrasion of there forces in the Balkans, I dont think that the border with the Persians would go without forces.
 
I dont like shiny, metal covered slavs, they are annoying to look at.


Persia was battered multiple times by the ottomans. Even if they had a large concentrasion of there forces in the Balkans, I dont think that the border with the Persians would go without forces.

True but the Persian would be able too if they got some help from the russian's. Modernizing the army at least
 
One thing that the OP leaves open is if not Spain then which country gets the Silver and Gold of the Americas. Because the inflation was harmful for Spain but then there was also the Pirating of said gold and silver that was immensely profitable for the Dutch and English. Pirating was essentially what gave the modern English and Dutch reason to cross the seas over to the Americas. And it essentially founded their great Naval tradition. Bermuda, another Island I can't think of, and others were all settlements that chiefly were founded to project pirating power into the Caribbean.

And if say it isn't Spain but France or England that conquers the Aztecs and Incans or at least gain access to the Gold. Then it might be the Spanish that become the feared Pirates of the Atlantic and in the long run form the stable empires that the Dutch and British did.
 
I think there is less chance of a war between England and Spain. Without the massive amount of gold to be gained by pirating the Spanish Main, the English government would have much less incentives to pick fights with Spain, and more likely to see them as a potential ally against the French.

I definitely agree that a Spain not enriched by new world gold probably cannot afford to confront the Ottomans as effectively. So maybe the Holy League is a complete failure and they get creamed at Lepanto. This is more of a problem for Venice than Spain, so Spain is no worse off unless the Ottomans get really aggressive and try to invade Sicily or Naples.
 
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Maur

Banned
One thing that the OP leaves open is if not Spain then which country gets the Silver and Gold of the Americas. Because the inflation was harmful for Spain but then there was also the Pirating of said gold and silver that was immensely profitable for the Dutch and English. Pirating was essentially what gave the modern English and Dutch reason to cross the seas over to the Americas. And it essentially founded their great Naval tradition. Bermuda, another Island I can't think of, and others were all settlements that chiefly were founded to project pirating power into the Caribbean.

And if say it isn't Spain but France or England that conquers the Aztecs and Incans or at least gain access to the Gold. Then it might be the Spanish that become the feared Pirates of the Atlantic and in the long run form the stable empires that the Dutch and British did.
Well, it would be sort of hilarious to have England as sick man of Europe and Spain as shinning beacon of parliamentarism and so on (and come to think of it, sheep and wool were important part of both English and Spanish economy back then)
 
Well, it would be sort of hilarious to have England as sick man of Europe and Spain as shinning beacon of parliamentarism and so on (and come to think of it, sheep and wool were important part of both English and Spanish economy back then)


What's is the pluasibility of a independent ireland.
I mean if their are a few war's between the englisha and the spanish would their be an independent ireland?
 
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