Spain Without New World Wealth?

8Deer

I know this has been discussed before, but the search engine hasn't been working for me for the past couple of days, so I got fed up and decided to make a new topic.

Basically, I'm working on a TL where Spain doesn't get tons of American gold shipped over during the 16th-17th centuries. What effects would this have on Spain and the rest of Europe? I understand that the sheer amount of gold and silver coming across the Atlantic lead to inflation throughout Europe, eventually causing many problems. What would happen to Europe without this inflation?
 

Russian Sailor

8Deer said:
I know this has been discussed before, but the search engine hasn't been working for me for the past couple of days, so I got fed up and decided to make a new topic.

Basically, I'm working on a TL where Spain doesn't get tons of American gold shipped over during the 16th-17th centuries. What effects would this have on Spain and the rest of Europe? I understand that the sheer amount of gold and silver coming across the Atlantic lead to inflation throughout Europe, eventually causing many problems. What would happen to Europe without this inflation?
Click to expand...

Maybe the value of money would be higher and if the Spanish didn't have so many places too administer the spanish might develop a better form of administration.
I don't know alll to well on spanish history
 

Polish Eagle

8Deer said:
I know this has been discussed before, but the search engine hasn't been working for me for the past couple of days, so I got fed up and decided to make a new topic.

Basically, I'm working on a TL where Spain doesn't get tons of American gold shipped over during the 16th-17th centuries. What effects would this have on Spain and the rest of Europe? I understand that the sheer amount of gold and silver coming across the Atlantic lead to inflation throughout Europe, eventually causing many problems. What would happen to Europe without this inflation?
Click to expand...

The inflation would hit sooner or later, once someone else gets to central America. But Spain, without that gold, would be nowhere nearly as strong as IOTL. Charles V would have far less to spend on his campaigns against the Turks. The Italian Wars and Pavia may go as IOTL, and even Vienna may be saved in 1529, but Charles will be less capable of prosecuting his war against the Lutherans in Germany. The Counter-Reformation would certainly be less successful without Spanish gold backing it up (gold that funded the Jesuit schools and monasteries). As a result, Lutheranism can spread further and faster. Perhaps southern Germany, even Poland can go (and remain) protestant.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
8Deer said:
I know this has been discussed before, but the search engine hasn't been working for me for the past couple of days, so I got fed up and decided to make a new topic.

Basically, I'm working on a TL where Spain doesn't get tons of American gold shipped over during the 16th-17th centuries. What effects would this have on Spain and the rest of Europe? I understand that the sheer amount of gold and silver coming across the Atlantic lead to inflation throughout Europe, eventually causing many problems. What would happen to Europe without this inflation?
Click to expand...
Is the New World discovered at all in your TL?
 

8Deer

Is the New World discovered at all in your TL?
Click to expand...

Yes, but the Aztecs and Incas are not discovered for a much longer period of time. The POD is Columbus sailing for England and discovering Newfoundland.
 

Russian Sailor

Emperor-of-New-Zealand said:
North Africa perhaps?
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Hmmm well then if they do that the Spanish might try to colonize part's of africa and be consentrated more with the east. But if they do that I mean they might come into contacts with west africa(used to be or still known for it's gold deposit's) and eventually conquer it. Bringing in lots and lots of gold. Which would put spain back to it's problem again.
 

8Deer

Yeah, I was planning on having the Spanish become more successful in North Africa, but Russian Sailor brings up an interesting point that I hadn't considered. I'll have to think about it a little more.
 

Faralis

It is an interesting cuestion, because witouth the gold, the kings would need the Cortes much more, and maybe this makes the country a more divided power ( more akin to England than to France ).

Netherlands would fall faster ( although if they support much less the HRE part this could butterfly the 30 year wars altogether ) ...

Complicated, no doubt.

Im not sure that even without Columbus they would abandon the idea of commerce with China. I think they would have colonies in America as soon as news came from the voyage. England ( No one at this moment ) was not strong to stop other european nations to create Colonies.

If you need it for the story, maybe a larger and bloodier war with the Ottoman leaves Spain ( and the Ottoman probably too ) more exahusted.
 

Russian Sailor

Faralis said:
It is an interesting cuestion, because witouth the gold, the kings would need the Cortes much more, and maybe this makes the country a more divided power ( more akin to England than to France ).

Netherlands would fall faster ( although if they support much less the HRE part this could butterfly the 30 year wars altogether ) ...

Complicated, no doubt.

Im not sure that even without Columbus they would abandon the idea of commerce with China. I think they would have colonies in America as soon as news came from the voyage. England ( No one at this moment ) was not strong to stop other european nations to create Colonies.

If you need it for the story, maybe a larger and bloodier war with the Ottoman leaves Spain ( and the Ottoman probably too ) more exahusted.
Click to expand...


What you might want to consider thinking about the trans-saharan trade network. If spain does come in contact with the sahara desert and Ghana and is able to conquor these places they might disrupt the trans-saharan trade network. Especially if since most of the areas spain would be colonizing is muslim and most of the trader's that are coming are muslim.
Catch my drift:)
 

MNP

As far as I know, at its peak the New World profits were providing about 25% of the money available to the Hapsburg for the wars.
 

Rakhasa

Its quite possible than if Spain is just one more kingdom, instead of a gold spitting machine, than Charles V (who was flemish at heart) splits the Empire and Spain for his sons (he seriously considered it OTL). That would be even more important than the lack of gold, as spain would be free of the Netherlands and the HRE in general, and so free to concentrate in Italy and North Africa.

Incindentally, 8Deer has said than Columbus did discover America, just he did further north. That's where the conquistadors would go. Thta in itself has it's own butterflies... Spain in the West coast will block the path for England, Fance and Holland; and Portugal will probably get Brasil and work northwards until they reach the Carribean, blocking the south. If they dont have to worry about the HRE wars of religion, they will be in a far stronger position by the time the reast of Europe starts their colonizing race.
 

Janprimus

Faralis said:
It is an interesting cuestion, because witouth the gold, the kings would need the Cortes much more, and maybe this makes the country a more divided power ( more akin to England than to France ).

Netherlands would fall faster ( although if they support much less the HRE part this could butterfly the 30 year wars altogether ) ...

Complicated, no doubt.

Im not sure that even without Columbus they would abandon the idea of commerce with China. I think they would have colonies in America as soon as news came from the voyage. England ( No one at this moment ) was not strong to stop other european nations to create Colonies.

If you need it for the story, maybe a larger and bloodier war with the Ottoman leaves Spain ( and the Ottoman probably too ) more exahusted.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, because the king of 'Spain' (Castille, Aragon etc.), who happens to be the Sovereign Lord of Netherlands as well, will also be forced to pursue different policies in the Netherlands. Pizarro and Cortes were successful during the Charles V.
IOTL during the reign of Charles V (Charles I in Spain) the Netherlands actually gave more funds to the monarch than Castille. Losing these territories will be even more costly ITTL.
 
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