Spain the major power in the Americas

People, this is a thought that came from the "after 1900" forum.

The original threat was pertaining to Alaska.

It came out that Spain was making claims on Alaska (1860's).

Now, what could have happened if Spain was the "owner" of the Gold Rush?

What if, on top of, France is selling Louisiana to Spain? Or transferring it, or something in that direction.

Spain keeping Cuba and Hispanola?

Not letting Mexico go in 1820?

I am not so clued up on this part of the world, OK. so go easy.

Ivan
 
Now, what could have happened if Spain was the "owner" of the Gold Rush?

What if, on top of, France is selling Louisiana to Spain? Or transferring it, or something in that direction.

Considering that Spain owned Louisiana before it voluntarily gave it back to France...

For Spain to "own" the Gold Rush, it would require it to hold on to Mexico or discover gold while it held New Spain.
 
Very different war of the Spanish succession ends up with a Habsburg in Mexico and a Bourbon in Spain (or vice versa). New Spain is an independent monarchy from 1700-and-a-bit, picks up Louisiana as OTL, rules Cuba and Florida, and has two centuries of moderately competent government and steady improvements rather than a century of half-assed reforms and local heel-dragging followed by another of wars and revolutions. Also pursued a policy of strongly encouraging Catholic settlment in El Norte from early on, no matter if they are Poles or Italians or Portuguese, as long as they solidify their claim on the territories north of the Rio Grande. Don't think they can cripple the US (as much as I liked Horatius's map), but may be able to stop 'em at the Mississippi.

Bruce

(OK, I cheated - New Spain rather than Spain)
 

Delvestius

Banned
The only way Spain would be able to assert power over their colonial holdings that far into the nineteenth century is to make it stronger from the get go, and a couple hundred years ago at that.

1. Weaken the Catholic Church: Less of a Catholic dominance means more merchants, more people, and actual scientific development.

2. Nix the Al-Hambra Decree: Keeping the immensely wealthy Moors and Jews in Spain, in turn helping their long-term economy, instead of removing them, and destroying it. This could be achieved with point #1.

3. Greater Home Manufacturing, less Buying: Spain, with their low population and masses upon masses of Bullion, just bought products and equipment instead of making the stuff themselves, thereby strengthening the enemy at their expense. This can be done by points #1 and #2.
 
The only way Spain would be able to assert power over their colonial holdings that far into the nineteenth century is to make it stronger from the get go, and a couple hundred years ago at that.

1. Weaken the Catholic Church: Less of a Catholic dominance means more merchants, more people, and actual scientific development.
In fact the intelectual ellites were members of the Church. The School of Salamanca gave in the XVI and XVII centuries the best matematicians (as Domingo de Soto who was one of Galileo's teachers), the best lawyers (such as Francisco de Vitoria who defined the idea of extended rights for amerindians), the first economists (such as Luis de Molina and Martin de Azpilicueta)...
The problem was entering in too many wars in Europe and thinking they could fund them with American silver. Preventing the Hapsburg from having the Spanish crown would help.

2. Nix the Al-Hambra Decree: Keeping the immensely wealthy Moors and Jews in Spain, in turn helping their long-term economy, instead of removing them, and destroying it. This could be achieved with point #1.
In fact the Moors (that were expelled in the XVII century) were just unskilled workers and a constant headache as they were collaborating in many cases with berberian pirates.
As for the jews the richest ones converted and remained in Spain.

3. Greater Home Manufacturing, less Buying: Spain, with their low population and masses upon masses of Bullion, just bought products and equipment instead of making the stuff themselves, thereby strengthening the enemy at their expense. This can be done by points #1 and #2.
The main industry was wool textiles, if the crown had no interest in favouring the flemish industries and more in castillian textile areas... this can be done by getting rid of the Hapsburgs. Controlling inflation would be also a must.
 
...And how much would the gold rush mean?

If Alaska is "swamped" with people from Spain (and probably a Spanish Mexico), will it also spill over into US/Canada?

Didn't California also have an influx of Spainiards?

Going a bit backj in time, would 1776 have been directed at Spain instead? Would we see a US with a "special relationship" with Spain instead of UK?

If Louisiana, Alaska, California, Florida and Cuba/Hispanola were Spanish up until WWI, then what? How much of US would go to war in WWI and on which side?

I am not great in this century, so please help me out a bit.

Ivan
 
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If Louisiana, Alaska, California, Florida and Cuba/Hispanola were Spanish up until WWI, then what? How much of US would go to war in WWI and on which side?

If Spain keeps all this land, the history of Europe and the Americas is so different that WWI is butterflied
 
Where would the Irish go after the potato famine? still to North America (New York, etc)?

If Spain is sitting on the gold rush, I can see Spain as a major power suddenly.

Is it realistic though? or is it just in the ASB category?

Ivan
 
Where would the Irish go after the potato famine? still to North America (New York, etc)?

If Spain is sitting on the gold rush, I can see Spain as a major power suddenly.

Is it realistic though? or is it just in the ASB category?

Ivan
They would probably still go to North America.
 

Delvestius

Banned
In fact the intelectual ellites were members of the Church. The School of Salamanca gave in the XVI and XVII centuries the best matematicians (as Domingo de Soto who was one of Galileo's teachers), the best lawyers (such as Francisco de Vitoria who defined the idea of extended rights for amerindians), the first economists (such as Luis de Molina and Martin de Azpilicueta)...
The problem was entering in too many wars in Europe and thinking they could fund them with American silver. Preventing the Hapsburg from having the Spanish crown would help.

I don't care how smart you were, but unless your live in a region where scientific and economic progression are not hindered by things such as Canon Law and the Jesuits, etc etc, you are not going to have an environment in which these theories and ideas can be put into practice. Tell me how many Scientific Revolution names came out of Spain? Enlightenment names? Right.

In fact the Moors (that were expelled in the XVII century) were just unskilled workers and a constant headache as they were collaborating in many cases with berberian pirates.
As for the jews the richest ones converted and remained in Spain.

I mean, sure there were a lot of these, but you forget the levels of wealth cities like Cordoba and Toledo maintained.. Granted, Moorish power had indeed declined by the fifteenth century, but at the same time, Cordoban and Grenadine Muslims were still at the top of the pyramid, even this late in the game..


The main industry was wool textiles, if the crown had no interest in favouring the flemish industries and more in castillian textile areas... this can be done by getting rid of the Hapsburgs. Controlling inflation would be also a must.

Controlling inflation is made significantly harder with the hundred of tons of Gold and Silver bullion coming unregulated through the ports. Perhaps some sort of company system akin to the British would be able to aid this, but again, I see no way these groups would form with the Catholic Church pretty much in charge of the monetary flow.
 
I don't care how smart you were, but unless your live in a region where scientific and economic progression are not hindered by things such as Canon Law and the Jesuits, etc etc, you are not going to have an environment in which these theories and ideas can be put into practice. Tell me how many Scientific Revolution names came out of Spain? Enlightenment names? Right.
You have chosen bad examples:
Canon Law: in fact it did not hinder anything,
Jesuits: did you know that jesuits were allowed into China just because they were the best astronomers that could be found?
You are right in one thing: things went really wrong for Spain before enlightment (too many wars, small population, too many overseas colonies...).


I mean, sure there were a lot of these, but you forget the levels of wealth cities like Cordoba and Toledo maintained.. Granted, Moorish power had indeed declined by the fifteenth century, but at the same time, Cordoban and Grenadine Muslims were still at the top of the pyramid, even this late in the game..
They were not at the top of the pyramid. Their greatness was gone since the XIII century. The richest cities in Spain in the XV, XVI and XVII were Seville (bankers, traders with Spanish America,... but no muslims, it was christian since the XIII century), Medina del Campo (traders and bankers) and Madrid (bankers and courtiers after it became capitol).




Controlling inflation is made significantly harder with the hundred of tons of Gold and Silver bullion coming unregulated through the ports. Perhaps some sort of company system akin to the British would be able to aid this, but again, I see no way these groups would form with the Catholic Church pretty much in charge of the monetary flow.
The problem was that smuggling it to northern Europe was much more profitable. There were companies but they were useless. And the church was not in charge of the monetary flow: they were the Hapsburg kings.
 

Delvestius

Banned
You have chosen bad examples:
Canon Law: in fact it did not hinder anything,
Jesuits: did you know that jesuits were allowed into China just because they were the best astronomers that could be found?
You are right in one thing: things went really wrong for Spain before enlightment (too many wars, small population, too many overseas colonies...).

Canon Law hindered Usery, or what the rest of us know as banking..

And the Jesuits, well known for their central part in the inquisition, were no strangers to burning the piss out of anyone that questioned the church, including those who engaged in "heretical" discoveries.


They were not at the top of the pyramid. Their greatness was gone since the XIII century. The richest cities in Spain in the XV, XVI and XVII were Seville (bankers, traders with Spanish America,... but no muslims, it was christian since the XIII century), Medina del Campo (traders and bankers) and Madrid (bankers and courtiers after it became capitol).

Of course they weren't the richest cities in Spain anymore, but let's not take all their credit away (AHhahaha, puns...) At any rate, it can be agreed that the Al-Hambra decree was severely detrimental to Spain in the long term.

The problem was that smuggling it to northern Europe was much more profitable. There were companies but they were useless. And the church was not in charge of the monetary flow: they were the Hapsburg kings.

Right, so we should find a POD in which they can be enforced. One with stronger central power perhaps, which can be done by removing the crazy power of the Catholic church perhaps...? :rolleyes::p

And who were in charge of the Hapsburg Kings yo? Charles V became a friggen monk after he relinquished power in 1556... If that doesn't tell you how much power the Church held, I dunno what does.
 
Canon Law hindered Usery, or what the rest of us know as banking..
It did not in the XV, XVI and XVII. Luis de Molina, Martin de Azpilicueta, Juan de Mariana were the founders of modern economy. They did develop a theory of the value of money that plently justified banking. The first modern banks were created in Seville, the problem was that the monetary reserve they kept was discovered by Charles I and later by Philip II and forced them to reduce it and to bet on riskier business. That caused its bankrupcy and these banks disappeared.
By the way, where do you think the Spanish kings got the money from? Bankers. First from Spanish and German bankers, later from Genovese and Portuguese ones.
I would recommend some readings on this issue:
http://www.amazon.com/School-Salamanca-Marjorie-Grice-Hutchinson/dp/B002DZCR5G
http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Chur...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1332495125&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Cambistas-mer...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1332497867&sr=1-1

And the Jesuits, well known for their central part in the inquisition, were no strangers to burning the piss out of anyone that questioned the church, including those who engaged in "heretical" discoveries.
I think you are confusing orders, the Inquisition was controled by the Dominican Order, not by the Jesuits. Their motto was more fighting the reformation through study and formation. Theirs was the Astronomical Observatory in Rome, the Academy of Sciences and, as I mentioned before, they were reputed as the best astronomers.
In the Galileo issue they found some errors in Galileo's argumentation (as the tides as a prove of heliocentrism).

Edit: I forgot to mention that Miguel Servet was burned by Calvinist Inquisition (he discovered blood circulation) while Galileo was condemned by Catholic Inquisition to live reclussion... it was commuted and he was allowed to live in the villa of a Cardinal in the coast near Rome. He published the most important part of his work while he was there.

Of course they weren't the richest cities in Spain anymore, but let's not take all their credit away (AHhahaha, puns...)
We cannot take away their history but they were not economic centers (those were Seville, Medina del Campo, Madrid or Cadiz), they were not cultural centers (those were Salamanca and Alcalá de Henares)... they only kept their history and their monuments.
At any rate, it can be agreed that the Al-Hambra decree was severely detrimental to Spain in the long term.
Not so much as it is usually pointed. As I mentioned they were not the richest people, of course they were skilled workers. But in the case of the Moorish population they were a threat as they cooperated with Berberian pirates and slavers. Did you know that most of the Mediterranean coastline was not populated. There were only a few, strongly fortified populations (in Santa Pola, Zahara de los Atunes and some other populations you can still see that the old town is behind fortifications), capable of fending off pirates. The moorish were known to cooperate with them, facilitating their attacks. After they were relocated (first) and expelled from Spain (later) the security in the coast improved and new settlements appeared.


Right, so we should find a POD in which they can be enforced. One with stronger central power perhaps, which can be done by removing the crazy power of the Catholic church perhaps...?
No, we need a POD in which the Spanish ruling dinasty does not feel that they have to be at war with everybody else in Europe and that they can use any resources at their reach to do it.
The opinion of the catholic church was much more... modern.
Please read: the works of Francisco de Vitoria (esp. "De indis", you will see that the Catholic Church considered inmoral forced conversions of amerindians and anybody else) (maybe it is more accessible to you http://www.amazon.com/The-Controver...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1332500443&sr=1-1), the works of Francisco de Suarez (that were burned in England because he defended that nobody could claim to rule by the grace of God as the English king did) or...

And who were in charge of the Hapsburg Kings yo? Charles V became a friggen monk after he relinquished power in 1556... If that doesn't tell you how much power the Church held, I dunno what does.
A friggen monk? He secluded himself in an small villa in Estremadura with an attached monastery, because he felt tired and ill. His health was not good even for a man of the era. He had travelled a lot, battled and suffered. Anyway, when he was in Yuste he was brough live oysters to eat, for instance.

It is very tiring discussing with someone whose knowledge of history is limited to stereotypes, topics and nothing else.
 
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And who were in charge of the Hapsburg Kings yo? Charles V became a friggen monk after he relinquished power in 1556... If that doesn't tell you how much power the Church held, I dunno what does.
You know, I could write a lot about how wrong you are on all points, but Anticlimacus has allready covered most of the main points. I just wish to remind you that Charles V at some point went to war against the Pope (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_League_of_Cognac ) and that his troops sacked Rome. That really "shows" how much "power" the catholic church had over the Spanish monarchs.:rolleyes:
 
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