Spain joins the axis and looses. What happens to it?

Why where eastern countries like the USSR, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia rife with deportations and ethnic clensing post war, but not western europe?


What I always miss in the discussions about the deportations of Italians after WWII in Yugoslavia is that the Fascist regime did a lot of cleansing after WW I. The population situation of 1945 was not ‘natural’, but a result of extensive cleansing; you should go back to the Austrian situation in 1918

Even before Mussolini Istria and environs was a training ground for fascist thugs. See the seizure of Fiume by d’Annunzio in 1919 or the burning of Slovenian schools and culture centre in 1920. Many people were killed, expelled, the Slovenian and Croat languages were completely suppressed and forbidden.

Of course thus is no justification for what happened in 1945, but the situation is so often portrated one-sided.

In this thread there are several extensive analyses of Habsburg and Yugoslav history, but the genocide by Italy in the Interbellum is not even mentioned. The way your question is posed proves that a lot misconceptions exist about a supposed duality: genocidal Eastern Europeans vs tolerant Westerners.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 94680

Why the assumption it would be partitioned? Germany was only split East-West because of the Soviet-WAllied frontline by the end of the War.

Those saying there was no King, you’re missing Jaun, Alfonso’s third son and designated successor, born 1913. He’s fully capable of leading a ‘clean’ post-Franco government.
 
In this thread there are several extensive analyses of Habsburg and Yugoslav history, but the genocide by Italy in the Interbellum is not even mentioned. The way your question is posed proves that a lot misconceptions exist about a supposed duality: genocidal Eastern Europeans vs tolerant Westerners.
I didn't know about this, and I'm sorry for my ignorance. I'm not trying to say that eastern europeans are more prone to bad things or whatever. But it can't be denied, that in the ww2 aftermath, eastern europe saw much more ethnic clensing than western europe.
 
Spain loses all uits remaining colonies, including Ceuta and Melilla.
Catalonia and the Basque Country get their independence, despite France fuming on the issue.
A referendum is held, and the country eventually reverts to republican rule once and for all, entering NATO in 1949 (the left having been mostly exterminated by Franco before and during the war).

Worst case 'Spain' remains fragmented, not even a federation holding these fragments within the same nation. At the other worse case end of the spectrum; circa 1948 the US throws its weight behind a 'conservative' Spanish government & the Communists are destroyed ending a second bloody civil war circa 1951. To win the US has backed a coalition which includes a large number of former actors of the Franco regime. They finish off the Communists with the same sort of methods they used 1938-39. Spain is united & for the 1950s & 60s is a much more brutal and dysfunctional police state than OTL.
 
Another thing, Spain won't be available for ex-Nazi's to go to. So Skorzney and his cronies will probably go to Argentina instead...
So H&K Is kinda screwed in this timeline? Who is those gunsmiths and engineers going build guns for post WWII if not the Spanish before they would be able to go back to Germany and start up H&K
 
I don't think the land grab would be that intensive. Look at Italy. It only lost a small amount of land to Croatia and France. Maybe its colonies would have gone to other countries but most of the country would remain intact.
maybe but Spain is really the Castilian Empire holding on to Catalonia, the Basque Country and Galicia will be tough in a tl where this empire has been defeated..
 
The fly in this particular ointment is that the WAllies were white folk, so they're not going to hand over a European city to a bunch of brownskins. It's an ugly truth, but it's there (read up on the Free French forces and the Liberation of Paris sometime). Plus, unlike Kemal Ataturk's successful revolt, the Moroccans had no leaders or forces capable of evicting the Spanish out of those cities, even after independence; hell, they were still a sort-of colony themselves at the time, divided between the Spanish and French territories.

For extra irony, the Moroccans weren't particularly averse to Franco's rule. In fact, several Moroccan units were some of Franco's best country forces, fighting the Republicans during the Civil War. Then again, it was a case of either fighting for the conservative Franco, or fighting for the atheist socialists who kept trying to force their unwelcome ideas on everyone.

The only reason Ceuta and Melilla would be removed from Spanish sovereignty is either because the Spanish did Bad Stuff(TM) in North Africa as the Germans did in Eastern Europe, or because those cities remaining in Spanish hands would be regarded a security threat to the region (unlikely). In either case, they'd end up under UN trusteeship or French custody. It would take quite a bit before Morocco would be allowed to take them back.
It wasn't the French of course who objected to colonial troops liberating Paris it was the Americans, just like in Havana in 1900 btw.
 
It wasn't the French of course who objected to colonial troops liberating Paris it was the Americans, just like in Havana in 1900 btw.
Pretty much. They refused to be photographed next to a bunch of "darkies" (due to a lack of French volunteers, most Free French troops were Arab, North African or West African), so De Gaulle had to hire a few thousand Spanish troops to be "representatives" of Free French forces.

Then in the 1960s France cut the pension off all those Africans who had fought for it. Ain't freedom grand?
 
I see Portugal preferring Olivenza, which legally was supposed to be theirs anyways. Besides that, no changes to the borders of Spain in Europe. The Republicans or some other group simply takes control. Maybe with some treaty explicitly recognizing Gibraltar is not their territory. I don't see the people of Melilla and Ceuta being expelled, as they had been their for centuries. There would also be the old concerns by the British about the French having the southern shore of the Straits, or by the French of Morocco being too unified, but... hmmm. actually, why not give The Riffians their own republic? And we are going to need to think of the Riffian, Saharan, and Moroccoan troops the Spanish used. I read how they were given some de jure baptism so they could be brought to Spain to fight the Republicans, and their payment was partially in shipping back the pots and pans they looted. Which were rather more valuable to an area where they weren't mass produced and available to all. Some people complained about the waste of time shipping those cheap things back were, but it was decided that the troops would be unhappy if they couldn't send back useful things for their families. Ahhh, and I am imagining Stalin keeps all the money the Stalinists in Spain stole in the dead of night, but no changes there. I expect the Americans may take some part in this war, and that Tim might confuse issues in Latin America, as the Germans, Italians, and Spanish would all be on one side. Some might not officially join the war on the American side, or at least stick to Japan and Germany.
 
Last edited:
If Gibraltar falls as seems likely, what are the chances of the UK claiming a bigger chunk of that area after they get it back?
Fairly unlikely I'd say. IIRC the Spanish town of La Linea was pretty much right on the border and had a population two or three times the size of Gibraltar's, any expansion of its territory would either see the Gibraltarians swamped by Spaniards or population transfers—voluntary or forced—required.

The British would likely ask for re-acknowledgement of the Treaty of Utrecht, recognition of the then current border line, and an agreement on the more modern issue of territorial waters that would no doubt lean in their favour. If they really wanted to push things then perhaps some sort of agreement on freedom of movement between Gibraltar and Spain, although I'm not sure attitudes of the time would be conducive.
 
To accept the Catalan and the Basque independence would alienate any future Spanish government post-Franco, not to mention most of the population.
 
Why would the US say to the UK to give up Gibraltar, they did not do that when Hong Kong fell to the Japanese and latter saying, lets hand it over to the Chinese.
Um... The US did float the idea of the UK giving Hong Kong to the Nationalists. Needless to say the UK was not impressed.
 
I don't see the people of Melilla and Ceuta being expelled, as they had been their for centuries.
While I've come to agree that explusion is unlikely, this is not the reason. The Germans of Prussia have lived there for centuries.

To accept the Catalan and the Basque independence would alienate any future Spanish government post-Franco, not to mention most of the population.
So what it would alienate them? The allies can force them to accept it. Like how the allies forced Germany and Italy to give up large portions of territory and yet there is no revanchism.
 
While I've come to agree that explusion is unlikely, this is not the reason. The Germans of Prussia have lived there for centuries.
There is of course a difference though they one country has waged wars of extermination on others and one of the countries wants part of the land so they had a strategic area and port, while th eother so they have somewhere to put millions of coethnics expelled form further East. I don't see the Allies seeing much motive for it here. At least not for Morocco's sake. Perhaps something could be spun so a portion do the Spaniards would move to Algeria. I also wonder if the French make the Western Sahara part of Mauritania. And here if an idea. Portugal gets Tangiers and/or Ceuta.
 
Very interesting thread and all 56 previous posts were educational and enlightening.

When reading this posted subject, there was a topic which I did not see discussed.

To what extent would the Spanish be involved militarily. Excluding those land, sea and air units needed for home defense, to what extent would Spain be involved as an active member of the Axis?

Would not the extent of their active engagement as a member of the Axis determine the level occupation and realignment after the end of WW2?
 
Very interesting thread and all 56 previous posts were educational and enlightening.

When reading this posted subject, there was a topic which I did not see discussed.

To what extent would the Spanish be involved militarily. Excluding those land, sea and air units needed for home defense, to what extent would Spain be involved as an active member of the Axis?

Would not the extent of their active engagement as a member of the Axis determine the level occupation and realignment after the end of WW2?
Well, otl Spanish volunteers faught on the eastern front against the Soviet Union. Something similar would happen.
 
So what it would alienate them? The allies can force them to accept it. Like how the allies forced Germany and Italy to give up large portions of territory and yet there is no revanchism.

Germany and Italy had the experience of the Great War and loosing lands, Spain hadn't since 1898 and they were smarting still about it. Perhaps revanchism isn't going to take place inmediately, but at the first sign of crisis and weakness, you can bet that someone is going to take that topic. So, unless Spain is utterly crushed and defeated to the very chore and persuaded they are now at the mercy of the Allies along with a Spanish Nuremberg Trials, you may have a Spanish version of the Dolchstoßlegende running there in a short while.

Also, BTW, loosing the Protectorate would not sit well. Spain had been bleeding there for a few decades.
 
Germany and Italy had the experience of the Great War and loosing lands, Spain hadn't since 1898 and they were smarting still about it. Perhaps revanchism isn't going to take place inmediately, but at the first sign of crisis and weakness, you can bet that someone is going to take that topic. So, unless Spain is utterly crushed and defeated to the very chore and persuaded they are now at the mercy of the Allies along with a Spanish Nuremberg Trials, you may have a Spanish version of the Dolchstoßlegende running there in a short while.

Also, BTW, loosing the Protectorate would not sit well. Spain had been bleeding there for a few decades.
I think if that happens, the Allies will pointedly remind the Spanish what happened to Germany when they tried that.
 
Top