Spain joins Axis in WWII

I've been looking at this site for a few days now, and it looks really interesting so i'll give it a shot. Sorry if some things I write might be 'impossible', but hey, it's alternate history, right? ;)

Anyways, what if Spain and Portugal - already allies of Nazi Germany - officially joined the Axis and invaded France. What would the consequences be? Would the US and britain make a landing in, say Lisbon? Would they liberate Madrid? Or would Spain and Portugal be ignored until they reach Berlin and the Allies merely wait for them to surrender?
 
1st: Welcome to the Board.

2nd: As pointed out in a lot of other threads concerning Spain joining the Axis, the answer it that Spain, after the civil war is way too weak to be of any help (and Nazi Germany already had lots of under-equipped partners from the various balkan nations, the iberian ones wouldn't be any better)

3rd: Portugal? While being fascist/authoritarian, it is still a centuries-old ally of Great Britain and not too inclined to change this.
 
1st: Welcome to the Board.

2nd: As pointed out in a lot of other threads concerning Spain joining the Axis, the answer it that Spain, after the civil war is way too weak to be of any help (and Nazi Germany already had lots of under-equipped partners from the various balkan nations, the iberian ones wouldn't be any better)

3rd: Portugal? While being fascist/authoritarian, it is still a centuries-old ally of Great Britain and not too inclined to change this.

Welcome aboard :)

I doubt Spain would have got far in an invasion of France, it was still in chaos from it's Civil War and the Pyrannees are one hell of an impediment to invasion, even if no French troops are in the area.

Later on in the war:

The Iberian Penisular is a ready made second front for UK/US. Why? Well land transport to it and within it is difficult whilst sea transport is easy. the end result is that it's hideously vulnerable to naval power which the allies have in abundance. If Franco had joined the war it would have been an open invitation for the allies to invade and over throw him and there would be little that Germany could do about it. There is good reason Franco didn't get (officially) involved

And as has been said about Portugal, it has an ancient alliance with the UK and so is an unlikely ally for Germany
 
3rd: Portugal? While being fascist/authoritarian, it is still a centuries-old ally of Great Britain and not too inclined to change this.
Didn't the UK invoke this alliance (Britain's oldest, having existed since 1386) to get Portugal to refuse a German request to base aircraft in the Azores?
 
Which isn't to say Franco wouldn't have got involved, it would have been stupid, but how many stupid decisions did Hitler and Mussolini make?
 
Yes but later on, say in 1942, when Germany sees itself 'winning', they could give supplies, training, etc. to the Spainish. For anything, to get somehing in the way of the Allies. They could attack Allied North African positions, and because the Spanish attacked British/Americans, they would be considered part of the Axis, and would be attacked back, most probably by at first Allied bombing then maybe, maybe a D-Day type landing in many possible places around the Spanish coast.

Of course, there is the problem of Fransisco Franco disbanding most his military, so I can see that being a problem. But if the few that stayed in the Spanish Army were still allied to the Axis and attacked Allied positions, it would just be easier for the Allies to invade Spain.
 
I also read that Franco refused to let Germans bomb Gibraltar. If he did, Spain would have likely been thrown into the war, even if they didn't technically attack the British.
 

Xen

Banned
The most likely way to have Franco join the Axis is to have him think that they were very close to winning the war. Maybe we can do something like my Return of the Tsar tl, where Hitler dies early in the invasion of the USSR, and a more practical leader (in my tl Goering) becomes Fuhrer. With a slight change in Soviet attitude to the USSR, the Germans are declaring the invasion a war of liberation, even setting up a puppet government (in my tl a surviving Romanov).

Russians are divided, but a significant enough percentage of them rally to the new Tsar and play a vital role in "liberating" Leningrad and Stalingrad. With the war on the Eastern Front looking like yet another German victory, and with a Fuhrer who is more rational, Franco offers a Spanish alliance to Germany in hopes of gaining some spoils of war.

Eventually I believe the western allies are going to invade Iberia, and though Spain may become a meat grinder, the western allies eventually win. How this goes from here is beyond me, I never got that far. Russia is embroiled in a brutal Civil War with the western support Soviets against the German supported monarchists. This frees up some German troops, perhaps even enough to thwart or slow down an allied invasion from the west, turning Italy and France into meat grinders as well. The allies may be able to go with the Turkish option, and twist Ankara's arm to get them to join the allied cause. The Balkan front becomes a major operation for the allies who initially catch the Germans off guard.

Also expect an earlier allied invasion of Norway
 
I would've though that Spain would be easy to invade. Many of the people opposed Franco even though he was in power, and the Americans, British, and even Portuguese could invade from three sides. I'm sure within a month of two most resistance will be crushed, and a pre-civil war politician put into power.

If they decided to go through the Pyrenees to liberate France, I believe that the Allies would actually fail. Under Goering, the Germans could have actually had a chance to defend France - the Pyrenees have even harsher conditions than inland Spain and could be more easily defended. It's a great boundary for keeping out armies.
 

Xen

Banned
Yes alot of Spaniards opposed Franco, a lot of them supported him still. Even at that the main reason I called Spain a meat grinder is the German Army, which would have a presence in Spain. The last thing Germany would want is the western powers to have a foot hold in mainland Europe. Spain would serve the allies as yet another unsinkable air base from which they could reach well into France, and take complete control of the Meditteranean.

I never suggested the west invade France from the Pyrenees, that would be foolish. Thats a noob error, I am far from a noob. As far as a pre-Civil War politician that remains to be seen, I find it far more likely a Provisional Council with leaders of various factions and parties will be the official government of Spain, but in reality the country will be under allied jurisdiction, leaving the Spanish government powerless.
 

Goldstein

Banned
The most likely way to have Franco join the Axis is to have him think that they were very close to winning the war. Maybe we can do something like my Return of the Tsar tl, where Hitler dies early in the invasion of the USSR, and a more practical leader (in my tl Goering) becomes Fuhrer. With a slight change in Soviet attitude to the USSR, the Germans are declaring the invasion a war of liberation, even setting up a puppet government (in my tl a surviving Romanov).

Russians are divided, but a significant enough percentage of them rally to the new Tsar and play a vital role in "liberating" Leningrad and Stalingrad. With the war on the Eastern Front looking like yet another German victory, and with a Fuhrer who is more rational, Franco offers a Spanish alliance to Germany in hopes of gaining some spoils of war.

Eventually I believe the western allies are going to invade Iberia, and though Spain may become a meat grinder, the western allies eventually win. How this goes from here is beyond me, I never got that far. Russia is embroiled in a brutal Civil War with the western support Soviets against the German supported monarchists. This frees up some German troops, perhaps even enough to thwart or slow down an allied invasion from the west, turning Italy and France into meat grinders as well. The allies may be able to go with the Turkish option, and twist Ankara's arm to get them to join the allied cause. The Balkan front becomes a major operation for the allies who initially catch the Germans off guard.

Also expect an earlier allied invasion of Norway

I mostly agree with you, but note that a more rational Fuhrer is not even neccesary... it would be enough with a more rational Franco.

OTL, Hitler ad Franco reunited in Hendaya to deal the conditions of Spain entering the war. The problem was that Franco demanded too much (a good chunk of Africa and too much material and logistical support), which angered Hitler. Some people argue that Franco subtly forced Hitler to that decision, but they tend to forget that the Hendaya reunion happened when the Axis seemed unstoppable, and the distinctive totalitarian and anti-liberal flavour of the early Francoism (that evolved into a simple anti-communism and a "it wouldn't work here" stance on democracy, when the cold war logic made it neccesary). If Franco had made more sensible demandings, maybe Spain would have entered the war.

As for the results... well, it is obvious that it would not make the Axis to win, as the Spanish army and industry was in a terrible state... some forum members think that, instead of delaying the victory, it would have make it easier, as it would have given the allies a good continental stronghold in shorter time... I'm not realy sure about that. It would be interesting to think about the butterflies it would cause in the postwar, though. Specially in the axis side, and in Spain... it is easy to consider a liberated postwar Spain with an stablished conservative democracy with alienated far left parties.

As for Portugal joining the axis... that is really, really hard. Not only the Portuguese would have no reasons to stab their long-time British allies in the back, but the Salazar regime had no great ideological resemblance with the fascist and nazi regimes, apart from being undemocratic and corporativist. Even Francoism had a greater fascist façade then, the Salazar regime being mostly reactionary and openly hostile to some fascist and nazi "revolutionay" premises. The No Spanish Civil War TL, by Dr.Strangelove (read it, Nusantara, it goes far beyond great) has a Portugal joining the Axis, but the circumstances described are very different there.
 
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If Spain is in the Axis and the first target this could take pressure off of Italy and the seizure of gibralter will limit the allies movement into the Med.

Hitler is shackled to a corpse, but II Duce has a major gain with allied manpower being drawn out of North Africa,
 
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