Spain continues as a Naval Power .

When the Napoleonic wars ended in 1815 Spain was the third largest navy in the world after the UK and France .The loss of empire to wars of independence and the subsequent loss of empire ended that though and by the early 1900`s Spain was only a shadow of its former self with only a few old ironclads and a few modern ships which were mostly sunk at Manilla .
But what would it take for Spain to preserve a part of its once vast empire (Peru for instance ?) ,Industrialize ,and maintain some sort of navy .I am not suggesting that they stay the third largest navy in the world by 1900 .But maybe they can rival the Austrians and Italians ?
There fleet can consist of any mixup you wish ,just so long as it has a few BBs along with the long range Armored and Protected Cruisers they would need to police what remained of the empire .
 
When the Napoleonic wars ended in 1815 Spain was the third largest navy in the world after the UK and France .The loss of empire to wars of independence and the subsequent loss of empire ended that though and by the early 1900`s Spain was only a shadow of its former self with only a few old ironclads and a few modern ships which were mostly sunk at Manilla .
But what would it take for Spain to preserve a part of its once vast empire (Peru for instance ?) ,Industrialize ,and maintain some sort of navy .I am not suggesting that they stay the third largest navy in the world by 1900 .But maybe they can rival the Austrians and Italians ?
There fleet can consist of any mixup you wish ,just so long as it has a few BBs along with the long range Armored and Protected Cruisers they would need to police what remained of the empire .

Very difficult, since this decline of Spain goes along with the general issues Spain suffered in the 19th century (Carlists, etc.). But one thing Spain did have was one of the earliest military submarines that was a good deal ahead of its time. If Spain can specialise in its naval capacities (maybe being a slightly reduced version of how the Imperial German Navy was organised, submarine force and all), Spain can still be a powerhouse naval-wise, at least as much as Italy could. Of course, that poses a good deal of questions regarding World War I...

Surviving Spanish Empire in Latin America is too difficult, I think, but a Spanish Empire with Cuba, Equatorial Guinea, and the Philippines can probably survive well into the 20th century.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
This wouldn't be that hard in pure material terms - the main problem is keeping the Spanish economy powerful enough to fund the navy in question.

But even then, it's not a huge amount - a few each BBs and ACRs would cost...


HMS Royal Sovereign was £900,000, roughly speaking, while HMS Victoria was £850,000. These are both first-class battleships, and sticking to a 2nd class quality level reduces the strain a lot. Similarly, a first class armoured cruiser is about £750,000 (Cressy class).

I'm using total British costs here as a lowball, since purchase is an option for Spain.


As per

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/es-navy-1890s.htm

the Spanish budget allowed for £9M to purchase new ships in the 1890s. To buy three each first class BBs and high quality armoured cruisers would cost roughly £4.8 million - so about a 50% increase. But the article linked also notes they had a battle-line unit or two already (domestically built).



So the difficulties aren't insurmountable, so long as the money is there. That, of course, is the rub.
 
Very difficult, since this decline of Spain goes along with the general issues Spain suffered in the 19th century (Carlists, etc.). But one thing Spain did have was one of the earliest military submarines that was a good deal ahead of its time. If Spain can specialise in its naval capacities (maybe being a slightly reduced version of how the Imperial German Navy was organised, submarine force and all), Spain can still be a powerhouse naval-wise, at least as much as Italy could. Of course, that poses a good deal of questions regarding World War I...

Surviving Spanish Empire in Latin America is too difficult, I think, but a Spanish Empire with Cuba, Equatorial Guinea, and the Philippines can probably survive well into the 20th century.

Really, that sounds amazing. What was it called. As for Spanish decline, was this caused by the inflation caused by Mesoamerican gold and silver?
 

Don Quijote

Banned
An interesting situation would be if Spanish colonies got caught up in one of the World Wars. For example the Dutch East Indies and Portuguese Timor became involved in WW2 almost by accident. (I know the Dutch were Allied by the time of the Japanese invasion, but in 1939 had the full intention of keeping out of the war.)

Even if the Philippines remain Spanish, the Japanese may still want to take them, which brings Spain in as a WW2 member of the Allies, assuming no Spanish-American War has butterflied away Franco and the Nationalists. The Azores lent by Portugal to the Allies were pretty good bases for ASW aircraft, but I imagine the Canaries would be gladly accepted too.
 
Really, that sounds amazing. What was it called. As for Spanish decline, was this caused by the inflation caused by Mesoamerican gold and silver?

The decline of the Spanish empire was due to many things .To many to mention in a brief post but basically Spain fell due to British refusal to help in suppressing independent movements in the colonies ,Incompetent governments under a series of bad kings ,and finally because the whole empire was already in dire need of reform before the Napoleonic wars had began and twenty years of war had ruined the already ruined .
 

Deleted member 67076

Hmm, you need a Spain that's much more stable and economically developed for this. Keeping Peru (which is doable if difficult, just got to bleed the Colombians and the Chileans until exhaustion, which they were at the breaking point right at the time of Peruvian liberation) would help, and would cause a great incentive on developing the navy, but it might cause Spain to be overly dependent on the colonies and not emphasis development back home as much.

Really, that sounds amazing. What was it called. As for Spanish decline, was this caused by the inflation caused by Mesoamerican gold and silver?

The Hapsburg system was very inefficient and just plain bad, which caused massive discontent and problems. In response, the other powers were able to take advantage of Spain's weakness. The Bourbons tried to reform the system, but the later kings acted too slow and then that imbecile Ferdinand VI ascended the throne, ruining everything.
 
Only way Spain could retain a major navy would be a revolution .... an industrial revolution that kept Spanish steel-works and shipyards leading the industrial revolution. Because capital ships are far too expensive to buy from off-shore. Even nations that built thief own capital ships found them a stain on the tax-payer. The only way they could justify spending so much on capital ships was to remind tax-payers about all the hundreds or thousands of citizens employed in home port shipyards.
Also remember that military shipyards grow AFTER a nation has a strong civilian ship-building industry.
IOW navies only exist to protect merchant ships.
During the late 1800s, what industrial advantages did Spain enjoy?
Did Spain any especially brilliant engineers or inventors?
How could the Spanish merchant marine afford to upgrade to steam-ships and maintain a profit margin while hauling cargo from colonies to Europe?
 
Also remember that military shipyards grow AFTER a nation has a strong civilian ship-building industry.
IOW navies only exist to protect merchant ships.

Actually the US naval build up provides an interesting counterpoint to that assumption. The merchant ship building industry was diddly up until the First World War when it leapt forward almost twenty fold by gross registered tonnage output. However the build up in the United States Navy long pre-dated that.

It might be true that the USN existed to protect merchant ships but for America's foreign trade it was foreign flagged vessels that were vital. In an interesting way your argument could be construed as suggesting that the United States Navy was built to protect the Norwegian Merchant Marine (the other big carriers of US goods Britain and Germany had their own large navies).

Personally I am inclined to suggest if Spain can somehow tame its Army and cut it (and especially its bloated officer class) down to size that might allow the Spanish Crown to spend more on the Navy which in the long term is going to be far more useful to Spain which indeed is a trading nation throughout the 19th century.

Not an easy one though.
 
Really, that sounds amazing. What was it called. As for Spanish decline, was this caused by the inflation caused by Mesoamerican gold and silver?

No. The impact of gold and silver from the Americas on Spain and its subsequent decline is drastically overstated. Castille was a far more important source of wealth than the metals brought over from Peru...and that was the problem. Castille was so heavily taxed that it couldn't develop economically, and the rest of Spain was too poor. Inflation didn't help of course, but the failure of the overall Spanish economy goes way beyond precious metals.
 
wars loss of netherlands decline of low countries inflation unproductive regins and overtaxation screwed over spain. The one viable POD to retian Spain as the 3rd great European naval power is no ferdinand have Charles III be succeeded by someone competent, butterfly away the French revolution or prevent the napoleanic invasion of spain. Either of the above two conditions plus the getting rid of ferdinand means spain will keep new world colonies, retain strong navy and retian close ties to france and the bourbon compact remains a credible threat to the British navy.
 
Really, that sounds amazing. What was it called. As for Spanish decline, was this caused by the inflation caused by Mesoamerican gold and silver?

The Peral Submarine, named for its builder Isaac Peral. It might not be much, but it could definitely point in intriguing directions for reinventing the role of the Spanish Navy.
 
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