Spain and Portugal in WWII

You'd need a shorter and less destructive civil war. In 1940 Spain was in no shape to join anything.

A 2nd PoD would be to make Hitler really, really, really desperate for spanish help. In OTL Hitler and Franco met to discuss Spain's entry in the war. Since Franco was not very keen on joining the Axis, he made all kinds of ludicrous exigences, such as Portugal, parts of southern France, and all of french North Africa. Hitler of course refused. Maybe if he accepted, Franco would have bitten.

In the event of Spain joining the Axis, Portugal would have joined the Allies, if only because spanish plans in this events included a preemptive invasion of Portugal to prevent it from joining the Allies... :rolleyes:

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You'd need a shorter and less destructive civil war. In 1940 Spain was in no shape to join anything.

A 2nd PoD would be to make Hitler really, really, really desperate for spanish help. In OTL Hitler and Franco met to discuss Spain's entry in the war. Since Franco was not very keen on joining the Axis, he made all kinds of ludicrous exigences, such as Portugal, parts of southern France, and all of french North Africa. Hitler of course refused. Maybe if he accepted, Franco would have bitten.

In the event of Spain joining the Axis, Portugal would have joined the Allies, if only because spanish plans in this events included a preemptive invasion of Portugal to prevent it from joining the Allies... :rolleyes:

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If this had happened (Spain joining the Axis and Portugal the Allies), and if the Allies still win, what would happen to Salazar's regime? I imagine that Franco would not be allowed to keep the power in Spain, but who would be his successor?
 

General Zod

Banned
I imagine that Franco would not be allowed to keep the power in Spain, but who would be his successor?

Probably liberated Spain and Portugal would follow a course much like Italy ITTL: the Allies would set up a coalition antifascist government between cooperative leftists and moderate centrists, and seize the first good opportunity to kick radical, philo-Soviet leftists to decades-long opposition to the first opportunity. Clue decades-long political domination by moderate rightist-centrist Catholic party. Spain and Portugal would be part of a stronger NATO since 1949 and of a stronger CEE/EU since 1957. South Africa is slighty weaker in the 1960s and 1970s without the alliance with authoritarian Portugal. The residual appeal of the far right in Western Europe is even less without Franco and Salazar as role models.

About the PoD: you can also have Franco persuaded to join the Axis in 1940 if Canaris' treason is discovered before: he persuaded Franco not to listen to Hitler.
 
Apparently, the Japanese offered to reward Spain with the Phillipines, in exchange for the Spanish Navy coming to their aid in the Pacific. Franco was probably pretty wise to turn that offer down; I can only imagine the state of the Spanish Navy in 1940, as compared to the U.S. Navy.
 
Apparently, the Japanese offered to reward Spain with the Phillipines, in exchange for the Spanish Navy coming to their aid in the Pacific. Franco was probably pretty wise to turn that offer down; I can only imagine the state of the Spanish Navy in 1940, as compared to the U.S. Navy.
Well, both their battleships were sunk during the Civil War- one by each side! Their cruisers were based on British designs, but 1 was hopelessly obsolete, leaving:
3 E-class light cruiser (WW1 design)
1 WW1 C-class light cruiser
and the only modern capital ship left, a County-class heavy cruiser.

They also had some fairly modern destroyers, but overall they couldn't have contributed much in the Pacific- the fleet was small, mostly obsolescent (apart from 1 cruiser and 15 destroyers) and had no carriers and many of the ships had poor AA armament.
 
Apparently, the Japanese offered to reward Spain with the Phillipines, in exchange for the Spanish Navy coming to their aid in the Pacific. Franco was probably pretty wise to turn that offer down; I can only imagine the state of the Spanish Navy in 1940, as compared to the U.S. Navy.

It is the first time I hear this. Actually, Franco's attitude towards Japan was extremely hostile. Spain almost declared war on Japan when the little remaining spanish population in Manila was slaughtered in 1942, and Franco offered Roosevelt to send spanish troops to the Pacific under american command to avenge them. Roosevelt declined. Franco's foreign minister once defined Spain's attitude towards the war as "With the Axis in the East, neutrals in the West, with the Allies in the Pacific".
 

Churchill

Banned
It is the first time I hear this. Actually, Franco's attitude towards Japan was extremely hostile. Spain almost declared war on Japan when the little remaining spanish population in Manila was slaughtered in 1942, and Franco offered Roosevelt to send spanish troops to the Pacific under american command to avenge them. Roosevelt declined. Franco's foreign minister once defined Spain's attitude towards the war as "With the Axis in the East, neutrals in the West, with the Allies in the Pacific".

"With the Axis in the East, neutrals in the West, with the Allies in the Pacific"
A very good stance.
 
They also had some fairly modern destroyers, but overall they couldn't have contributed much in the Pacific- the fleet was small, mostly obsolescent (apart from 1 cruiser and 15 destroyers) and had no carriers and many of the ships had poor AA armament.

The importance of carriers was established during WWII, so while its unlikely they would have been very effective, that fact may not have been entirely clear to the Japanese and the Spanish at that time.
 
Apparently, the Japanese offered to reward Spain with the Phillipines, in exchange for the Spanish Navy coming to their aid in the Pacific. Franco was probably pretty wise to turn that offer down; I can only imagine the state of the Spanish Navy in 1940, as compared to the U.S. Navy.

It's impossible to happen, Spain can't get the Philippines even if Spain join the Axis. Almost 3/4 of Spanish population in the Philippines have been slaughtered by the Japanese.
 
Apparently, the Japanese offered to reward Spain with the Phillipines, in exchange for the Spanish Navy coming to their aid in the Pacific. Franco was probably pretty wise to turn that offer down; I can only imagine the state of the Spanish Navy in 1940, as compared to the U.S. Navy.
At the risk of sounding terribly naive - did this really happen???:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::eek::eek:
Could you kindly give links or sources? And when did it happen? I am not questioning your competence, it just sounds completely incredible!
 
At the risk of sounding terribly naive - did this really happen???:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::eek::eek:
Could you kindly give links or sources? And when did it happen? I am not questioning your competence, it just sounds completely incredible!

If you want a link, you're going to have to find it; it isn't something I read on the Internet. I heard it on a radio show by some guy (Dave Emory, a bit of a crackpot, but no one can argue he doesn't do meticulous research, its just the conclusions he draws from his research that are sometimes questionable) back in the early 90s. I'm sure he cited a bibliographical source (he pretty much never says anything on his show without providing a bibliographical citation, which can make listening a somewhat pedantic experience), but I didn't jot it down.
 
I was just thinking the same thing.

Just imagine that Roosevelt accepts the offer, thinking that this would allow him to use Spain as a beach-head to Europe. Spain sends the troops and one small fleet. Franco thinks that with troops in Russia fighting against Communism and troops in the Pacific fighting Japan he will be safe whoever wins the war. What now? Will Hitler decide to attack Spain? Will Roosevelt press Franco to enter the war on the allies side?
 
Just imagine that Roosevelt accepts the offer, thinking that this would allow him to use Spain as a beach-head to Europe. Spain sends the troops and one small fleet. Franco thinks that with troops in Russia fighting against Communism and troops in the Pacific fighting Japan he will be safe whoever wins the war. What now? Will Hitler decide to attack Spain? Will Roosevelt press Franco to enter the war on the allies side?

The most pressing difference would be that, instead of enduring a decade of isolation and international shunning, Spain would probably be a founding member of the United Nations... no doubt Stalin could use this to propaganda against the americans.
 
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