Space WI: The Soviet N-1 heavy lifter rocket is successful

Thande

Donor
Based off the Soviet moon landing thread...

The main reason why the Soviets lost the space race was the failure of their N-1 heavy lifter, the equivalent of the US Saturn V. However, what is interesting is that the Soviets had rather broader and more ambitious plans for the N-1 than the Americans had for the Saturn V - which was limited to a dozen or so products and production was terminated just before the Apollo-11 moon landing, partly because the Saturn V was inefficiently assembled from parts made all over the USA due to pork-barrel spending by Congress. So if the N-1 succeeded, the result might not be limited to "only" the Soviets landing a man on the moon first.

The history of the N-1 design can be found here if anyone wants to suggest a specific POD based on that.

The Soviets planned to use the N1 to launch massive space stations, manned Mars missions, and even a nuclear-powered upper stage (which the Americans also considered for the Saturn V). Most interestingly, they even considered using the first stage of the N1 to launch a miniature reusable shuttle design as early as 1974, when the US space shuttle was in its earliest planning stages.

Of course in the real world with budget realities not all these things would happen if the N1 worked. But what if it did...?
 
The N-1 design was not 100% ready at Korolyov death.
major problem N-1 can only bring 75 tons in orbit, they need 95 tons for lunar flight.

after Korolyov death, Vasily Mishin take over a intrigue alcoholic ,
like play Glushko against Korolev in question on engine on N-1 rocket.
and inexperienced Kuznetsov get order to build N-1 rocket engine NK-15.
had Mishin not intrigue this, Glushko had build modular engine Blocks for N-1

and so Vasily Mishin start to redesign the N-1
put in First stage 24 engine NK-15. to 30 ! increase the propellant mass by supercooling the propellants prior to loading!
something were the Rocket was NOT build for
the Liquid oxygen feedline normaly -183 deg C at were now on -191 degrees centigrade.

due Vibration of 30 engine durnig launch some of LOX feedline broke and Liquid oxygen flows over engine and BOOM
the NK-15 engine. was so full of Problems
the oxidizer pump not build for -191 deg C and fails in some engine
also were slag fragment in Engine and feedline, do bad Quality control

had they choose twin launch option ( 2x N-1 with rendevous in orbit )
they had not need to redesign the N-1 and they had 150 tons, instead 95 tons in low orbit
this idea was from Dmitri Ilich Kozlov
 

Thande

Donor
had they choose twin launch option ( 2x N-1 with rendevous in orbit )
they had not need to redesign the N-1 and they had 150 tons, instead 95 tons in low orbit
this idea was from Dmitri Ilich Kozlov
I think the twin launch option is the best for success. Perhaps it could be N1 + Proton rather than two N1s?
 
Perhaps it could be N1 + Proton rather than two N1s?

the problem is the Lunar Complex

build out
Block G stage 61 tons launch Block D/LK/LOK to moon
Block D stage 19 tons burn in moon orbit and bring LK to moon.
LK lander 6 tons (inside shell durnig flight to moon)
LOK orbiter 6 tons

see picture
l3cut1.gif


so first N-I launch brings 31 tons Complex (Block D/LK/LOK) + rendevous system
then second N-I brings 61 tons Block G + rendevous system

31 tons is to much for Proton but for N-II a N-I variant without first stage !
http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/n.htm
 
Base (snipped) However, what is interesting is that the Soviets had rather broader and more ambitious plans for the N-1 than the Americans had for the Saturn V - which was limited to a dozen or so products and production was terminated just before the Apollo-11 moon landing, partly because the Saturn V was inefficiently assembled from parts made all over the USA due to pork-barrel spending by Congress.

Actually, the SATURN Launcher (the family) came before the moon program (so did Apollo for that manner). SATURN was envision as America's heavy launcher (with NOVA as the Super heavy) in the beginning. Even after the Moon program became priority One, NASA had plans for SATURN beyond Athe moon landings. The Saturn V was the orignial launcher for the VIKING (first called VOVAGER) as well as deep space missions, Saturn I (in various verisons) were planned take over earth orbit lauches, and by well use with space stations (APOLLO Applications which lead to SKYLAB, also had plans for extensive Lunar mapping missions, and long term returns to the moon).

Alsowhile spreading the program out among Congressial districts did help win votes in Congress, even without the pork angle with; the size of the 3 stages if would still have been bulit in different locations, if only for speed (as well as the monster of a complex you'd need to build the whole thing....in one place)

The decision to cancel wasn't because of the "inefficient" production (and it is suspect if you could build it "more inefficiently" in a single location) it was political ... for more and more Congressmen (including ones in NASA-pork areas) there was no amount, however small, they'd spend on Apollo-Saturn, or space. Trivia, the "anti-Apollo" mood was so strong in Congress, they would even approve funds to mothball the remain hardware (2x complete Saturn Vs, 3x IAs, and 2x LMs, and 3x CSMs) for possible future use, which is why they ended up in parks at the centers.

So if the N-1 succeeded, the result might not be limited to "only" the Soviets landing a man on the moon first.

Yes, especially the more ambitous military projects.

Of course in the real world with budget realities not all these things would happen if the N1 worked. But what if it did...?

And there lays the rub, for the Soviet leadership was far more demanding the space program produce benefits (for the military) than the US or Europe. I wouldl forsee a discussion circa 1980 going,

"Comrade Director of Manned Space, congratulations on the MIR-LENIN station, my great-great daughter took be out back of my dacha, and showed me it as it passed! Skylab is nothing, and the amazing live tv of the US military bases..."

"Thank you, Comrade Chairman, we would like a million rubles, half the N1 launches for the next 5 years, and 5% of steel production for a manned Mars mission next..."

"Comrade Director of Manned Space, are the capitialists on Mars?"

"Nyet, Comrade Chairman"

"Comrade Director of Manned Space, are there explioted third countries, we can help liberate then steal everthing of value?"

"Nyet, Comrade Chairman"

"Comrade Director of Manned Space, are there raw materials we can use to build more tanks, bombs, planes, there?"

"We don't know, Comrade Chairman, but there is much science to do and the Soviet Flag to place!"

"Comrade Minister of Defence, should we based nuclear missles there"

"Have you been hitting the vodka early Comrade Chairman"

"Former Comrade Director of Manned Space, do I look like Nikki...nyet, new Comrade Director of Manned Space build more missiles and spy sats, maybe a missle laucher on the station?..."

But to your question, the PODs would need to be major and early. The Soviet program never had a plan (at least one everyone played by). Also they never put the money into the infrastructure, test stands being one of the best examples, of course they couldn't put anywhere near the money the US government alone spent, because as long as the military was getting the big piece there wasn't enough left for space to do everything it needed too. Remember, while Russians trumpet the Soyuz/Salyut program, it took till the mid 80s to get the system to the Near earth operations standard the US Apollo systems reached in 1968-69.

I suspect if the Soviets at least tried, and accomplished some of the ambitions, the US (and Europe) would try (and suceed) in topping them.
 
When did the N1 have it's test failures? Before or after Saturn production was stopped? I think the CIA had a pretty good idea if how the N1 was going, which would influence US decisions.

So if the CIA got wind that the N1 was going along well enough, and the first test was successful, would that prod Nixon to order some more Saturns and do the extra things that the US was capable of? That would be awesome.
 
Would that prod Nixon to order some more Saturns and do the extra things that the US was capable of? That would be awesome.

Sea Dragons maybe...now that would be something, but it probably wouldn't go down well in the Saturn production facilities.
 
When did the N1 have it's test failures? Before or after Saturn production was stopped? I think the CIA had a pretty good idea if how the N1 was going, which would influence US decisions.

So if the CIA got wind that the N1 was going along well enough, and the first test was successful, would that prod Nixon to order some more Saturns and do the extra things that the US was capable of? That would be awesome.

Well, as mentioned, the N1 was a somewhat badly flawed design...all those engines on the lower stage, for example: very difficult to coordinate and keep stable. The thing exploded spectacularly on all four tests.

It's more than just the N1; the Soviets were mainly interested in practical, military-related applications for their space program. They were never that intent on landing a man on the moon; they were more interested in, say, military space stations and ICBMs.

The thing about military space stations is that you don't really need them. What are you going to use them for: reconnaissance? Guess what: satellites can get the same job done just as well, and much more easily. Photoreconnaissance? ELINT? Radar imaging? Yeah. Well...the US was somewhat better with electronics, though...I think the Soviets had to use film-return for longer, and they never had the sophisticated satellite data relay networks the US built and put up.

Again, more than just the N1; the Soviet leadership and aerospace community have to be really focused and intent on putting a man on the moon. And a whole lot of decisions much further back need to be different; chances are, if the Soviets had had a more viable lunar program, something like the N1 might not even have existed.

Let's see here, though...more than just the booster, there's the spacecraft. Well...probably a minimally-modified Soyuz with the LK would have sufficed. You'd also need something to put it on a transfer orbit towards the Moon. It'd have been clumsy and failure-prone, but the multi-launch Earth-orbit rendezvous/assembly was probably manageable. Just use a bunch of Proton launches to put the Soyuz spacecraft, the landers, and an upper stage for TLI. That'd require a lot of launches and work in orbit, though...
 
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