Space craft questions.

Inspired by this thread, I have some questions.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=269445

Back in the day, what would it have taken in terms of S V's to deliver cargoes to both earth and lunar orbits? Or would we still need something like a non-atmospheric re-entering space shuttle to ferry cargoes to and from the moon?

Could a non-atmo re-entering space shuttle land and take off from the moon? How many command capsules (is that the one that returns via 'splash-down?) could be lofted by a S V?

How many S V's would it take to orbit a few NAR Space shuttles, the cargo for an initial Moon base, and the fuel for these hypothetical shuttles?

Without the need for a re-entry heatshield, when could the USA have fielded such a craft?

I like this kind of stuff, but have no knowledege of these things.

Help!:)
 
Have a look at Space Tug proposals and I think you'll find close to whhat you're looking for. Basically a Space Tug would shunt payloads around from low earth orbit to lunar orbit, it would periodically refuel from a cargo launch from earth. The requirements for taking off and landing on earth and the moon require specialist vehicles that probably don't do that well cruising cislunar space.
 
Have a look at Space Tug proposals and I think you'll find close to whhat you're looking for. Basically a Space Tug would shunt payloads around from low earth orbit to lunar orbit, it would periodically refuel from a cargo launch from earth. The requirements for taking off and landing on earth and the moon require specialist vehicles that probably don't do that well cruising cislunar space.
Thanks for the speedy reply. Earth landings are a problem because of the heat of re-enteringthe atmosphere AIUSI, would this be the same for the moon? I planned to have the space shuttle carry alloft at least one landing craft, but left me go lokup the space tug you mentioned real fast.

Thanks again.

Wow, excellent read there. I had to add that to my favorites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tug
 
There is no atmosphere on the moon, but a lander needs to be able to brake into ever decreasing orbits with rocket thrust in order to land.
 
There is no atmosphere on the moon, but a lander needs to be able to brake into ever decreasing orbits with rocket thrust in order to land.
So some 'lander' craft would be needed to be based in lunar orbit, in order to effect delivery of cargoes to the lunar surface? Or would all but personel arrivals be cheaper to just have the fuel and engines as an integrel part of the payload? Very interesting stuff, and thanks again.:)
 
A lander's probably cheaper in the long-run, because then you don't have to make your lunar-terra shuttle even beefy enough to land on the moon (and it will need to be at least a bit beefier, since there will have be some sort of structure to stop the landing gear from tearing out whichever bits of the hull it's attached to), although in fact you could have 3 units, a lunar-terra engine units, a surface-orbit engine, and a swappable transport unit (one 'transport' units could be optimised for cargo, another for passengers, etc.).
 

Archibald

Banned
Back in the day, what would it have taken in terms of S V's to deliver cargoes to both earth and lunar orbits?

The Saturn can launch 120 tons to Earth orbit. As for the lunar surface it is much more complicated - depends from the lander. But it is around 12 tons or so.

Or would we still need something like a non-atmospheric re-entering space shuttle to ferry cargoes to and from the moon?

Could a non-atmo re-entering space shuttle land and take off from the moon? How many command capsules (is that the one that returns via 'splash-down?) could be lofted by a S V?

How many S V's would it take to orbit a few NAR Space shuttles, the cargo for an initial Moon base, and the fuel for these hypothetical shuttles?

Without the need for a re-entry heatshield, when could the USA have fielded such a craft?

Going to the Moon is pretty complicated and can be achieved through many, many different ways.

The shuttle can't go past Earth orbit. If you want to use a shuttle to go the Moon, then you need
- a propulsive rocket stage to reach the Moon
After that you can decide
- or to land on the Moon directly (big vehicle)
- or to cut your space vehicle into two parts (simpler)
------> one stay in orbit around the Moon
------> the other land on the Moon, then return to the orbiter.
Another issue is returning from the Moon.
When returning the vehicle (say, the Apollo command module) hit Earth atmosphere at tremendous speed, faster than a shuttle. You could use a rocket engine to try and brake in Earth orbit, then return like the shuttle do; but that braking takes a huge amount of rocket fuel, making the space ship extremely heavy.
Better to hit the atmosphere at full speed and brake, then deploy a parachute and splash in the ocean.
 
i not understand clearly your question, Shadow Master

what do you mean with space shuttle to moon ?
do mean the Space shuttle who has fly at NASA
538px-STS-79_rollout.jpg


but your notice a non-atmospheric re-entering, means the Space Tugs aka Nuclear Shuttles for Earth Moon flights ?
800px-Nuclear_Shuttle_Payloads.jpg


the standard Saturn V can bring 120 tons of payload to low orbit.
uprated Saturn V could have launch maximum 480 tons into orbit.
 
i not understand clearly your question, Shadow Master

what do you mean with space shuttle to moon ?
do mean the Space shuttle who has fly at NASA


but your notice a non-atmospheric re-entering, means the Space Tugs aka Nuclear Shuttles for Earth Moon flights ?


the standard Saturn V can bring 120 tons of payload to low orbit.
uprated Saturn V could have launch maximum 480 tons into orbit.

I never make things easy for others to understand, and for that I apologise. I don't do it for kicks, but because I have great difficulty articulation all the stupid ideas that occure to me, lol.

I have been up all night with netflix, so I will make a post after a brief midmorning nap. :cool:
 
Random questions

@ Michel Van:

How serious does NASA or GK have to be about a moonbase to justify a nuke space tug?

AIUI it was proposed but between NERVA getting killed and Nixon wrapping up Apollo in the 70's OTL - both a moonbase and nuke space tugs were a dead letter.

However, is there a non-ASB chance a moonbase gets funded and they'd need such a thing to shuttle supplies and people to/from it?
 
Micheal Van, which uprated Saturn V could lift 480t to LEO? Was it one with SRBs and a stretched 1st stage, or one that was too tall for the VAB?
 
Micheal Van, which uprated Saturn V could lift 480t to LEO? Was it one with SRBs and a stretched 1st stage, or one that was too tall for the VAB?

Boeing proposed in 1968 the Saturn V-4X(U)
FOUR Saturn V lashed together !
it would had payload faring of 20 meter diameter and need to be assembly on launch pad.

i made little error on payload, because the U in Saturn V-4X(U), stand for Upgraded
the fist stage is stretched 498 inches and got 5 F-1A engine. the second Stage standard S-II
so the Payload is 527600 kg to 486 km orbit.
 
Michel,

As I understand it, a thermal nuclear rocket such as NERVA, which I gather would be the engine of the LEO-Lunar Orbit tug you referenced, will use up its reactor core materials in just one burn, or maybe it can be stretched to several burns, but the point is, to use a whole lot of power to drive a relatively modest mass of hydrogen propellant at a high exhaust speed for high ISP. This power quickly depletes the reactor core, does it not?

So, I am guessing that while the rocket engine (the non-reactor part of it, basically the expansion nozzle) and tankage and guidance and so forth can be reused many times, the reactor core (which serves as "combustion chamber" too though there's no "combustion" going on!:p) would have to be swapped out for a new one.

The mission, I suppose, would be to launch a cargo to TLI from a low earth orbit, presumably near some station, then brake itself and cargo to low Lunar orbit (or a base at L2 perhaps), then loiter around, presumably using the reactor core (largely depleted by the TLI launch) to supply power to keep the remaining hydrogen fuel liquefied. Eventually there will be a return cargo from the Moon to Earth, and when it its big enough to justify the mission, the thing blasts out of Lunar orbit (or away from L2) to put it on a return path to Earth; this requires considerably less delta-V than leaving Earth orbit did. BUT for it to be reusable, it will be necessary to then use the rocket a fourth time for a fairly heavy burn, equivalent in fact to what was needed to launch to TLI, to brake into LEO again.

Thus we have two TLI-scale burns, on the order of 3 km/sec delta V each way, near Earth, and two LOI burns, around 1500 m/sec or half TLI, around the moon--I'm hazy on how much we save by going to an L2 base instead, I think a lot; it would cost IIRC about 600, maybe 7 or 8 hundred, meters/sec for each burn.

OTOH, I think it costs somewhat more delta-V to go from L2 to the Lunar surface and back again, and a lot more time.

Assuming low Lunar orbit, we then have a total delta-V of about 9 kilometers per second. The reactor has to be able to deliver 3000 initially, power down and wait several days then power on for 1500, then wait days to months (decaying all the while but I don't think typical reactor isotopes--U-235 or plutonium--will decay much in that time frame) for another smaller burn, then finally be capable of a big burn at the end to rendezvous with the space station, or anyway a craft meant to take the cargo back down to Earth.

The ISP of NERVA-type thermal rockets was meant to be in the range of 800-1000; take it as 900 and we see we need for the launch mass from LEO to have been e times the final burnout mass when it returns--it depends on the cargo mass a bit of course, obviously the return cargo to Earth can be more or less than what was sent out, it seems reasonable to guess it would typically be a lot less. It would even be a valid mission for the thing not to carry anything back to LEO but itself, to be used again mainly to ship stuff to the Moon but with not much ever coming back from the Moon. In that case, it might not even need to brake to Lunar orbit, just eject the cargo to brake itself with on-board one-use rockets, to Lunar orbit or to a direct landing on the Moon. Then the tug can loop around the Moon on a free-return path and then we just have the two burns in close Earth orbit, which amount to 6000 meters/sec total.

Let's assume though that it does the full mission I described above, carrying back to LEO a cargo of the same mass as it hauled out to lunar orbit.

Then if the tug, with all fuel gone, plus the cargo masses 1, the hydrogen propellant at launch from LEO was 1.73. I could look up the nuclear shuttle proposal (be easier if you had offered a link or the exact name of that particular one!:rolleyes:) or I'll just guess here--say the cargo was 100 tonnes, and the tug masses 100 tonnes dry (including reactor core of course!) and both were launched to LEO on a standard Saturn V, whereas the propellant was launched in four Saturn V launches, along with some auxiliary mass. The tug docked at some orbiting fuel dump where the hydrogen-laden tank stages had also docked, and transferred the hydrogen in. It keeps the hydrogen liquid using the reactor in low-power mode to run active cryogenics and radiators.

Fueled, and with the cargo loaded, it masses 544 tonnes. It expelled a bit over 154.2 tonnes to send itself to the moon, leaving about 390. As it approaches the Moon some days later, it brakes using about 60 tonnes of hydrogen to wind up massing about 330. In Lunar orbit, it drops its 100 tonne cargo and takes on another one of the same mass, and then blasts back into Trans-Earth injection, using a bit under 51 tonnes, to send 279 tonnes back toward Earth. Approaching Earth, it brakes into LEO using the remaining 79 tonnes of hydrogen and arrives empty with its own 100 tonne mass and its 100 tonne cargo.

Again--my question is, what condition is the nuclear reactor core in at this point?

Each of those tonnes of hydrogen, exiting the nozzle at 10,000 meters/sec, absorbed at least 50 billion joules of heat from the reactor, so the total output of the reactor was 17.2 x 10^12 joules. Assuming the tug's rocket was initially powerful enough to shove the initial 544,000 kg mass at a full 10 m/sec acceleration (which might be more than was needed, but not a lot more considering we want TLI burn to last not more than a sixth or so of a 90 minute orbital period--we might let it go down by a factor of three or so, but not much less) and therefore put out say 5 meganewtons, with a mass flow therefore of half a tonne per second, the reactor is putting out 25 gigawatts--again, at least, that's the amount of power that is usefully thrusting the ship, but I presume there are substantial inefficiencies, in the form of heat that is not converted to useful work for instance. It has to do this for 688 seconds--actually it is acceptable for its power output and mass flow to deteriorate quite a bit as it arrives at Earth with something like 40 percent the mass it left with, so the thrust and hence power flow can be ramped down a lot--but then the burn has to last longer, so the firing lifetime for one such mission must be in the ballpark of 1000 seconds anyway.

As I said my understanding was, the NERVA and other such designs of that generation intended that the reactor core should be fully depleted by the end of one mission, and the stage discarded. I don't know how many gigajoules of heat a kilogram of reactor core material can be expected to put out before the fissionable materials in it are too dilute, too surrounded by decay products (some of which "poison" fission chain reactions by absorbing neutrons) to go on putting out useful amounts of power.

Clearly if a standard say 1970 NERVA was going to use up its core in one mission, and we want it to last not one but 10, we might simply multiply the mass of fissionable materials in the core by 10. That's not entirely satisfactory; toward the end the reactor will be sluggish and cooler, due not just to depletion of materials but due to "poisoning" by decay products. We might instead have to swap out the reactor after 5 missions or so, and then reprocess it to purge out the undesirable wastes and reconcentrate the useful isotopes, adding in supplementary ones shipped up from Earth. If we can't have a suitable reprocessing and refabrication plant in orbit, we need to ship the whole core down to Earth, recover it and haul it off to some ground-based facility, then ship the refurbished core to a launch site to ship it up to the space station where it waits to be reinstalled in another tug with an old core.

In addition to these costly investments (either building a nuclear reprocessing site in orbit, or shipping a multi-tonne reactor core down to Earth and then back up, never mind the security issues!:eek:) of course a bigger core is more massive, taking up a bigger share of our arbitrary 100 tonne tug, leaving less for engine, tankage, guidance, etc.

In the course of considering this scenario, I went on to consider the possibility of aerocapture of the tug and its cargo to return it to Earth orbit, delivery of cargo to a station and then refurbishment and refueling in orbit for another mission; this led me to compare it to the possibility of a chemical LH-LOX version and to some interesting conclusions regarding a much smaller scale (1/8) version of the latter that seems to be a very close match to Saturn V launch capabilities; if I'm right, and it's actually feasible to aerocapture it, then such a thing (a lenticular craft about 13 meters in diameter and 3 thick in the middle) would take about one Saturn V load, just under 100 tonnes of fuel plus a payload, depending on whether the mission involves returning anything from lunar orbit or not, between 8 and 20 tonnes.

But before posting anything about that here I mean to go back and look at the exact figures for TLI and lunar orbit insertion and escape; they might be a bit better than I've been assuming which would give badly needed margin for the mass of the reusable "tug" (more like a Shuttle in that the cargo would be inside, in a bay). Or they might be worse in which case forget about it.:eek:

I just want you to clarify, how often would the nuclear cores need to be replaced with the sort of nuclear tugs NASA proposed and you seem to be endorsing here?
 
Some mistakes I made in my last post

The worst error in my last post was grossly overestimating the orbital velocity around the Moon; working with more careful figures I find it to be about 1640 meters/sec 100 km above the moon.

On the other hand I underestimated the delta-V needed for TLI.

I should note here, as I did in a pm to Shadow Master, NASA did not use minimum energy orbits in the Apollo program, because there is a big time savings for a very small price in delta V by using a higher, more energetic orbit. If the Apollo capsules had not been aimed to intercept the Moon, they'd have gone out to considerably farther than the Moon's approximately 400,000 km radius--more like 500,000 km in fact. By doing that, they cut lots of time on the outward (and hence inward) leg of the trip.

I did the math for both transfer orbits, one that goes in a minimum-energy Hohmann half-ellipse out to the Moon's average radius of 384,399 km, and one that goes out to exactly 500,000 km, both starting from an orbit 200 km above the Earth (6578 km radius). The Hohmann orbit needs a delta v of 3133.1961 and the faster orbit, 3154.1725, meters per second increase over orbital velocity. The difference is ludicrously small!

It makes a bigger difference at the other end though. The relative approach speeds of the spacecraft to the orbiting Moon are significantly different, 1076 meters per second for the fast one versus 832 for the Hohmann, and that in turn means a difference in the braking delta-V to put an object into orbit 100 km above the Moon's surface--914.5 for the fast orbit, 821.5 for the Hohmann.

But altogether, the combined delta Vs for even the fast orbit, out and back, add up to just 8137.2816, or a bit over 90 percent of what I estimated, 9000 m/sec.

So, 294 tonnes of hydrogen propellant would suffice to take 200 tonnes dry mass out and back using rocket propulsion for every step, if the nuclear rocket has ISP around 900. If it gets better ISP, 1000 or so, things are better yet.

Using the Hohmann orbit and my assumption the effective rocket exhaust speed is 9000 meters/sec (Isp 917.5), the propellant mass comes down to 281.6 tonnes. This orbit does take substantially longer though!

We could probably do a bit better than a Hohmann orbit, actually--that's part of what the advantage of going to the Lagrange points is all about. It would seem that going to L1, whose gravitational potential is lowered by being a balance point of both Earth and Luna's gravitational fields (that is, if we plot the total gravitational potentials in a rotating frame, adding a potential that accounts for centrifugal force as well) Earth and Moon are each in gravitational wells, and L1 is the lowest point on the ridge line between the wells; L2 is on the far side of the moon, also on a saddle point in the potential but one that is I believe a bit higher up. Maybe I've got that backwards because in that rotating frame it is farther out so the "centrifugal potential" is a lot lower.

So, routing orbits through those "gateways" imply that we can use the lowest energies possible. There are catches--for one thing, if we do that, it would take literally forever for the craft to cross the critical Lagrange points, for another as far as I can puzzle it out, conservation of angular momentum rules out a straightforward shot from a low Earth orbit to either point, at least one that arrives with zero kinetic energy--which is good, since we don't want to dawdle there forever!

Unless we do--a lot of proposals suggest setting up a way station at L2 rather than close Lunar orbit.

It might indeed work out that the total delta-V from LEO to Lunar surface is lowest going via L2; I suspect it is a consequence of that energy saving that the trip will take a lot longer. So, good for cargo, not so good for human beings.

I hope no one is too messed up by my earlier mistake involving the speed of close Lunar orbits.:eek:
 
You were not so wrong, Shevek23.
a round trip from Low earth orbit to low lunar orbit and back is in speed around 8200 meter/sec

lets take realistic proposal by Boeing from The Integrated Manned Interplanetary Spacecraft from 1968
the Primary Propulsion Module:
total mass to be launch without cargo 245600 kg
Liquid hydrogen propellant: 174600 kg
NERVA nuclear thermal engine: 14500 kg
Propellant tank: 22700 kg
Stage equipment: 2700 kg
Meteoroid shield: 19000 kg
Interstage structures: 5200 kg
NERVA Specific impulse: 850 s.

this would have be launch with Saturn V-25(S)U
it use 4 segmented solid booster in size Shuttle SRB. stretch first stage with 5xF-1A, S-II is structural strength for more load
and yes with Height of 143 m, they have ripp off the roof of VAB and put it higher...

Standart Mission:
First launch of a Saturn V-25(S)U with PPM
second launch of Saturn V (two stage) with 80000 kg payload on rendezvous with PPM.
total mass in orbit now 325600 kg to launch to moon orbit
the mass-factor is 1,635 means 199133,3 kg is in Moon orbit and Payload is separated from PPM and get to save distance.
now with 119133.3 kg, it makes it return trip and arrive with 72864 kg in earth orbit .
that 64100 kg of PPM stage and 8764 kg of Hydrogen fuel.

the PPM has to cool down in term of radiation, with a safety distance of 250 km to every manned spacecraft in orbit.
after it save to near the PPM again two saturn V are launch
one with fuel tank with 174600 kg Liquid hydrogen to fill up the PPM and second with 80000 kg payload

PPM could fly 7 of those mission under the assumption the NERVA engine can restart 28 times. (maximum of restart made with NERVA test engine)
 
Could the Nova program have amounted to much do you think?

yes it would have, it was design to launch 454000 kg in orbit. (compare to 325600 kg of my example)
Nova original planed for direct landing of US astronauts on Moon in 1959,
It objective were change in 1962, with choice of Saturn V LOR mission. so Nova became heavy lift rocket for future Mars mission.
in 1964 they cancelled quietly Nova and start study upgrade Saturn V models...
 
You were not so wrong, Shevek23.
a round trip from Low earth orbit to low lunar orbit and back is in speed around 8200 meter/sec
That's still a lower delta-V than my second figuring but I suspect that's because I was working with quite a low Earth orbit, just 200 km altitude, and also perhaps a lower Moon orbit, just 100 km.

I wanted 200 km above Earth to take maximum advantage of the Oberth effect; Apollo used even lower parking orbits of 160 or 180 km, "a hundred miles," I forget if statute or nautical miles!

Whereas this radioactive shuttle thing seems to require really large distances during its cooling-off period, and I guess that means its parking orbit after returning from a mission must be 250 km higher than any manned facility; since nowadays we put objects like the ISS above 400 km, I guess the plan was to park it 700 km or more high.

Which helps explain the rather low 80 tonne to orbit payload of a standard Saturn V; one usually sees that number given in the range of 100-120 tonnes.
...
after it save to near the PPM again two saturn V are launch
one with fuel tank with 174600 kg Liquid hydrogen to fill up the PPM and second with 80000 kg payload

PPM could fly 7 of those mission under the assumption the NERVA engine can restart 28 times. (maximum of restart made with NERVA test engine)

Well, the PPM arrived at Earth orbit with a reserve of hydrogen, presumably for contingencies. If that hydrogen could be conserved, the refueling would not have to be the full 174.6 tonnes, it might just be 166 or so.

So, optimistically, 166 tonnes can propel 80 tonnes to Lunar orbit and the PPM is again recovered.

Here's the thing; a standard OTL 1970 Apollo mission could, using at most 120 tonnes in Earth orbit (that is, less than 80 tonnes fuel), deliver over 40 tonnes to Lunar orbit. Using the PPM then, we certainly can deliver more tonnes per mission, but we aren't delivering more tonnage as a ratio of mass launched to Earth orbit. We get to reuse a stage (at considerable operational costs, involving leaving it parked for an unspecified time while it puts out hazardous radiation, requiring us to launch fuel and payload to a higher Earth orbit!) but we don't get more tonnage to the Moon than the old Saturn V with all chemical fuels and no need for any orbital operations whatsoever could deliver.

Unless a nuclear tug like this can improve on the overall delivery of tonnage to the Moon as a proportion of launch weight, we don't seem to be making any progress. Also, to do it with this particular tug, we need to expensively upgrade the VAB, and do heaven knows what to the launching pads, and the crawler to haul the massive superrocket to the pad from the VAB.

If we just forged on ahead with standard Saturn V's, I'd think we could build up Lunar infrastructure just as quickly. It would require more launches but these would become cheaper and more efficient with experience and development of routine.

And there would be no issues of radiation hazard, not to mention the risk of a launch failure in the initial launch of the PPM leading to its nuclear core crashing somewhere unpredictable or burning up and getting scattered in the stratosphere!

I might be overlooking something, but I'm not all that impressed with the superiority of this atomic rocket!
 
On the 28 restarts of nerva otl, was anything wearing out, or was it just that there wasnt any point in doing more?

Id assume that if they were actually using nerva as a space tug that theyd want to get the number of uses a lot higher than 7 if possible.
 
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