Soviet Union with no World war two and Stalin

So, in a world where Weimar Germany continues and Stalin doesn't take power, what happens to the USSR?
 
Probably a continuation of NEP, thus giving us a much less industrialized, but nonetheless prosperous Union. The Army would also be in a better position, without the Stalinist purges.

If Trotsky takes power, you could see more communist involvement in Germany and the rest of Europe, possibly leading to at least a couple revolts, if not revolutions.
 
Probably a continuation of NEP, thus giving us a much less industrialized, but nonetheless prosperous Union.

Not likely. Of the candidates for Soviet leadership following the death of Lenin, the only one favorable to the NEP was Bukharin and he had the political acumen of a potato. We are still likely to see collectivization, forced industrialization, and even purges... they just won't be enacted in a manner (and, in the case of the purges, be on such a scale) that was as destructive as Stalin's were.
 
Stalin took power in 1922, so trying to figure out what the USSR will be like without him won't be easy.
 
Stalin took power in 1922, so trying to figure out what the USSR will be like without him won't be easy.
If Lenin lived, or his final papers reveled to all, you might see a changed Soviet, one that discredited such power grabs, Lenin was hard, and complicated, but in the end was that people like Stalin were not the answer to create a democratic socialist state.

Unfortunatly it was too late.
 

Deleted member 1487

Trotsky run USSR? Maybe more like how the USSR war run by Khrushchev post-Stalin, minus the rapid, forced industrialization.
 
Trotsky run USSR? Maybe more like how the USSR war run by Khrushchev post-Stalin, minus the rapid, forced industrialization.

Well since the rapid forced industrialization was done..

Industrialization needed to take place. Albeit it could have been less brutal ..
 

Deleted member 1487

Well since the rapid forced industrialization was done..

Industrialization needed to take place. Albeit it could have been less brutal ..
Sure industrialization would take place, just not at the pace and cost it happened under Stalin iMHO
 
Sure industrialization would take place, just not at the pace and cost it happened under Stalin iMHO
I was attempting humor.

And I agree with you.
Heck czarist Russia was well on its way to industrialization, hell the Germans fear was that if they waited for war with Russia it would be to late and the advantage would permanently be in favor of the Russians. Ironically it was the the same position again in 41.

With out the war, Russia would have been a stronger nation by leaps and bounds and while I'm not a great fan of the monarchy, especially Nicholas II, the rest of the system wasn't going to change until something forced it. And well it did..
 
If Lenin lived, or his final papers reveled to all, you might see a changed Soviet, one that discredited such power grabs, Lenin was hard, and complicated, but in the end was that people like Stalin were not the answer to create a democratic socialist state.

Unfortunatly it was too late.
There appears to be no PoD that Lenin lives longer.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
These are 2 PODs 8-11 years appart, unless Stalin not beeing in power would weaken the 3. International and lead to a very differend KPD, with Paul Levi or Ruth Fischer at the top instead of Ernst Thälmann and to some kind of early Eurocommunism strenghening the German republic...

No Stalin alone is such a big POD, done many times with a lot of possible outcomes, that it is really hard to say what would happen...

German-Soviet millitarry cooperation regarding planes and tank would likely continue after 1933...
 

Deleted member 1487

German-Soviet millitarry cooperation regarding planes and tank would likely continue after 1933...
That was something that was winding down with or without the Nazis. The Germans pretty much had the Allies remove the last of the observers enforcing the ToV armaments ban, so the Germans could do everything they did in the USSR at home now, while the Soviets repeatedly proved unwilling to work with the Germans on several issues by the late 1920s and vice-versa. In fact without Stalin the German-Soviet cooperation might not even happen ITTL. Trotsky was not a fan of the German militarists. Though if Trotsky doesn't take over then there probably would be the cooperation.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
That was something that was winding down with or without the Nazis. The Germans pretty much had the Allies remove the last of the observers enforcing the ToV armaments ban, so the Germans could do everything they did in the USSR at home now, while the Soviets repeatedly proved unwilling to work with the Germans on several issues by the late 1920s and vice-versa. In fact without Stalin the German-Soviet cooperation might not even happen ITTL. Trotsky was not a fan of the German militarists. Though if Trotsky doesn't take over then there probably would be the cooperation.

Hard to say, we are talking about two totally different countries than in OTL here. But since neither the WR nor the SU had alot of options for millitarry cooperation otherwise and were not likely to fight each other, due to Poland, there could be value in it.
Especially if the Reichwehr doesn't want the public to know to much about it.
 

Deleted member 1487

Hard to say, we are talking about two totally different countries than in OTL here. But since neither the WR nor the SU had alot of options for millitarry cooperation otherwise and were not likely to fight each other, due to Poland, there could be value in it.
Especially if the Reichwehr doesn't want the public to know to much about it.
That pretty much hinges on Trotsky. He wasn't interested in working with foreign powers, he wanted to start revolution in them. There were other players and Trotsky was not making allies or endearing himself to Lenin before Lenin became ill (which is why Stalin was appointed to the position of General Secretary, Lenin was pissed at nearly everyone else), so it is possible Lenin, absent Stalin, sidelines Trotsky completely and Trotsky's lack of political allies means he gets marginalized, though not exiled like IOTL. I'm not that familiar with Soviet politics, but Stalin pretty much packed the government with his allies early on, so its tough to say how the USSR would have evolved without him, because he was so critical to the early development of the nation. It is possible and potentially more likely for less ideological people that Trotsky to take over once Lenin is incapacitated and they would be willing to work with the Reichswehr. Clearly the Reichswehr was willing to work with less ideological Soviets in the 1920s, much depends on the Soviet side of things. Still come the early 1930s the Germans don't need the Soviets, so they are likely to depart from the military cooperation no matter what because of being able to do what they want at home, but without the Nazis poisoning relations a less ideological USSR (than one led by Trotsky, but still somewhat more than Stalin) are likely to work with the Germans increasingly in terms of barter trade from 1932 on due to the Soviets also suffering in the Great Depression from loss of external markets; Germany would badly want trade, but IOTL the Nazis and Soviets couldn't agree until the late 1930s; without the Nazis around, but also no Stalin there is still a good chance for the Germans and Soviets to work together on all sorts of issues, but especially economically due to their complementary needs (Germany needs raw materials and has high technology industrial trade goods to sell, the Soviets had lots of raw materials and needs industrial technologies they cannot make internally to develop industrially). There are also points to work together on internationally on the issue of China. The Soviets wanted a friendly China and didn't get on with Mao, while hating the Japanese, and the Germans wanted Chinese trade and without the Nazis seeking geo-political allies to counter the Soviets there is nothing that Weimar Germany needs from Japan, who is a competitor over China. So Weimar and the USSR have a lot to work together on as shadow allies of sorts. Things may get a bit tricky once Versailles falls apart and Germany starts to openly rearm, but German and Soviet revanche over Poland has common interests.
 
There appears to be no PoD that Lenin lives longer.
Well Lenin being more healthy and living longer would help on the Stalin takes power in 22.

I think there is lots of rooms for Germany and the Soviets to work together if one had more sane leadership. So I'm inclined to go with wiking on his thought process
 
well stalin not taking power is ;) I was giving a way that stalin could possibly not take power. Lenin regains his health, realizes Stalin is a paranoid megalomaniac and decides he needs a relaxing visit to a Dacha in the best interest of the soviet peoples.

Or stalin is run over by a trolly bus on his way to pick up cabbage at the market. I was just picking something that I thought, such as lenins testament that would be damning to Stalin, that in effect could have the possibility of changing the soviet union forever. If Comrade Lenin has an epiphany moment where he realizes that the future will be bleak and the vision derailed, than what if he manages to recover ( yes I know hand wave on that one ) however as a what if for no stalin, that's an interesting premise.

of course you still have others who are just as loony tunes to take the reins after lenins passes on. but what is to say that if a kinder, gentler soviet union rises that a more democratic tradition can not be instilled into the system vs the cult of personalities, "i am General Secretary and all others will be crushed" mentality that we got.
 
In Matthew White's "The Great Big Book of Horrible Things" he observes that so many big dictators came from countries on the periphery of the nation they led.

Stalin was a Georgian. Napoleon was Corsican. Hitler was part Austrian.

Wonder why that is?
 
In Matthew White's "The Great Big Book of Horrible Things" he observes that so many big dictators came from countries on the periphery of the nation they led.

Stalin was a Georgian. Napoleon was Corsican. Hitler was part Austrian.

Wonder why that is?
Not sure what this has to do with the thread exactly. Also Hitler was full Austrian, who speak German and are or were as German as Bavarians are. Napoleon was Corsican ,but the island was added to France just before or after his birth. Georgia, I am pretty sure was apart of the Russian empire and so by some standards he was Russian.

It's possible that is the way it is, is because immigrants are probably going to try and do more to make their adopted country proud. Like Henry Kissinger, who is said to be one of America's greatest statesmen, was born in Germany. On a personal level, my cousins are Mexicans, but they are more pro American then I am, which is little, and not only was I born in this country ,but my dad is an American and my mom mostly speaks English to me, while they speak nothing , but Spanish at home! Like they even where flag Bandanas while I cringe at looking at flag clothes and refuse to pledge allegiance at school.

Edit: please note that they try to do what THEY think makes their country proud.
 
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