Soviet Union Survives

What would the world be like if the Soviet Union survived to this day? I think that it would just be cool, because the USSR and USA were very similar. Both had constitutions gauranteeing freedom of speach, religion, etc.

Perhaps the Soviet Union would change to democracy with the continued reforms of Gorbuchev. The Soviet Union wouldn't be exactly like the United States, perhaps with a more parliamentary system, where each SSR has elections for a representitive to the Grand Soviet every 2 or something years, and every 4 years they elect a General Secretary or something. I'm not too familiar with the Soviet system.

It would truely be a freaky twin of the US. It's just funny to think of how despite their differences, the US and USSR had a lot in common. The US throught it's history hasn't exactly been an angel, keep that in mind.

So, if the Soviet Union managed to keep itself together, what might the world be like today? It's likely from 1991 to 2008 the USA and USSR would be a bit more friendly. Despite some difference in interests, the Cold War wouldn't be too much of how it was during the late 20th century. I'd like to see an alternate history fiction where the Soviet Union and United States work together to fight terrorism and yada yada.
 
I suppose that would be plausible. But the reforms made the Soviets weaker. Yes, if the reforms continued the Soviet Union might survive, but it would be called the Russian Union because most of the Soviet ruled states would probably be liberated, like Poland and East Germany :rolleyes:
Don't forget that the Communist Governments in the occupied states where at the bottom of the popularity charts.
 
By the way, there are already books like that, where Soviets fight with the US. Like in The Ten Thousand by Harold Coyle.
 
The thing with the communist governments in Poland or the DDR is that they were ten times more oppressive than the Soviet Union's.
 
What would the world be like if the Soviet Union survived to this day? I think that it would just be cool, because the USSR and USA were very similar. Both had constitutions gauranteeing freedom of speach, religion, etc.

Perhaps the Soviet Union would change to democracy with the continued reforms of Gorbuchev. The Soviet Union wouldn't be exactly like the United States, perhaps with a more parliamentary system, where each SSR has elections for a representitive to the Grand Soviet every 2 or something years, and every 4 years they elect a General Secretary or something. I'm not too familiar with the Soviet system.

It would truely be a freaky twin of the US. It's just funny to think of how despite their differences, the US and USSR had a lot in common. The US throught it's history hasn't exactly been an angel, keep that in mind.

So, if the Soviet Union managed to keep itself together, what might the world be like today? It's likely from 1991 to 2008 the USA and USSR would be a bit more friendly. Despite some difference in interests, the Cold War wouldn't be too much of how it was during the late 20th century. I'd like to see an alternate history fiction where the Soviet Union and United States work together to fight terrorism and yada yada.

Oh yah, just a cool freeky twin of the USA.:confused: Certainly not a place where I'd want to live and raise a family. I suppose we'd all be singing Kum Bah Yah and world hunger, poverty and disease would be things of the past by now as well. (Sorry to be so sarcastic, but your scenario is a real s t r e t c h).
 
Oh yah, just a cool freeky twin of the USA.:confused: Certainly not a place where I'd want to live and raise a family. I suppose we'd all be singing Kum Bah Yah and world hunger, poverty and disease would be things of the past by now as well. (Sorry to be so sarcastic, but your scenario is a real s t r e t c h).

He has a point. The USSR loved to boast about the progress and prosperity of America; building cities in Siberia to tame nature's bounty, stories about the sons of a railroad ticket checker becoming the head of the steel mill at Magnitogorsk, women abandoning their evil husbands, etc. This is true up until Stalin's death; I don't know when it died out afterwards.

I woulnd' twant to live there either, of course.
 

CalBear

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What would the world be like if the Soviet Union survived to this day? I think that it would just be cool, because the USSR and USA were very similar. Both had constitutions gauranteeing freedom of speach, religion, etc.

Perhaps the Soviet Union would change to democracy with the continued reforms of Gorbuchev. The Soviet Union wouldn't be exactly like the United States, perhaps with a more parliamentary system, where each SSR has elections for a representitive to the Grand Soviet every 2 or something years, and every 4 years they elect a General Secretary or something. I'm not too familiar with the Soviet system.

It would truely be a freaky twin of the US. It's just funny to think of how despite their differences, the US and USSR had a lot in common. The US throught it's history hasn't exactly been an angel, keep that in mind.

So, if the Soviet Union managed to keep itself together, what might the world be like today? It's likely from 1991 to 2008 the USA and USSR would be a bit more friendly. Despite some difference in interests, the Cold War wouldn't be too much of how it was during the late 20th century. I'd like to see an alternate history fiction where the Soviet Union and United States work together to fight terrorism and yada yada.

Where do you draw the conclusion that the U.S. & USSR were similar in any way? The USSR was run, from Day One, by a bloodthirsty, utterly brutal, despotic regime that maintained power through terror and threat of internal exile to work camps (e.g. slave labor camps) without trial, execution without trial or any appeal process, and collective punishment. The USSR MURDERED a minimum of 60,000,000 of IT'S OWN CITIZENS between 1918 & 1991 (a total butcher's bill that only the PRC can rival). Many Americans sentenced to PRISON have better lives than the residents of the USSR did during the existance of the Worker's Paradise (frex: They are not subject to torture and summary execution for speaking out against the ruling party.)

The Soviet Union had all the trapping of a civilized state, it just didn't follow any of them. Elections were not just single party, but single candidate, the rule of law was a concept beyond the understanding of the Party leadership. This was a country that put millions of repatriated PoWs into work camps (where hundreds of thousands of them died) for the horrible crime of following orders. Look at Soviet tactics in Afghanistan and compare them to anything that the U.S. ever did (including the shameful actions of the U.S. military during the Indian Wars and the Philippine Revolt) and tell me there was ANY comparision between the two states.

Is the U.S. perfect or an idealized state? Hardly. Compared to the USSR however, it is literally heaven on Earth. For that matter, the *USA* in Decades of Darkness is paradise compared to the USSR.
 
Hardly suprising is it?

Within the Russian heartlands, the USSR could atleast claim a modicum of popular support and legitimacy. If its all you have ever known your not going to complain too much; what else could there be?

Wheras in Poland the people have to be forcibly kept 'communist'. They have a natural desire to oppose what is quite clearly a Russian puppet regime. Thus there needs to be greater repression to keep them in line.

Although obviously, you have to compare like with like. The USSR over the whole of its life span was terrible, but that butchers bill starts to look a little bit smaller in the post-Stalin years (although its still in a far removed league compared to the USA).
 

CalBear

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Hardly suprising is it?

Within the Russian heartlands, the USSR could atleast claim a modicum of popular support and legitimacy. If its all you have ever known your not going to complain too much; what else could there be?

Wheras in Poland the people have to be forcibly kept 'communist'. They have a natural desire to oppose what is quite clearly a Russian puppet regime. Thus there needs to be greater repression to keep them in line.

Although obviously, you have to compare like with like. The USSR over the whole of its life span was terrible, but that butchers bill starts to look a little bit smaller in the post-Stalin years (although its still in a far removed league compared to the USA).


Yea. They only managed to kill 15-20% more of their own citizens than the Reich managed with the Final Solution.
 
Romania?

I would have sworn the post said Poland or the DDR.
He obviously meant Soviet satellite-states, Poland and the DDR were just examples. I just gave you the best example I could give of a ruthless tyrant in one of them. :rolleyes:

But, sure, if you want an example from the DDR and Poland...

In Poland, you can't really find one single person that 'did it', as Poland was under direct Soivet military control for quite a while after the war (as is the case with the DDR), and most of those that did the repressing and executing were native collaborators (mostly through the Intelligence Services), but there was quite a number, and their identities were well-hidden.

In the DDR, however, you have the fellows that ordered the shooting of anyone who tried to get past the Berlin Wall and etc.

You can see the ruthless government types like these that did the oppressing there: Erich Honecker

In most cases, it was rarely one person, but the entire cabinet, or hell, government that was so ruthless that even the Soviets wished they'd get easy on their populace, which they knew was impossible if they wanted to keep these countries in the communist camp. It was basically a (seemingly) never-ending circle of oppression and silencing, until the people couldn't take it anymore, and communism ultimately fell.
 
Tres Bien !!

I would like to see U.S.S.R as a bordering nation between U.S and third country. So there will be no Iraq War and so on,because Soviet will bordered if there is any conflict.

Sorry for my bad English.
 

CalBear

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He obviously meant Soviet satellite-states, Poland and the DDR were just examples. I just gave you the best example I could give of a ruthless tyrant in one of them. :rolleyes:

But, sure, if you want an example from the DDR and Poland...

In Poland, you can't really find one single person that 'did it', as Poland was under direct Soivet military control for quite a while after the war (as is the case with the DDR), and most of those that did the repressing and executing were native collaborators (mostly through the Intelligence Services), but there was quite a number, and their identities were well-hidden.

In the DDR, however, you have the fellows that ordered the shooting of anyone who tried to get past the Berlin Wall and etc.

You can see the ruthless government types like these that did the oppressing there: Erich Honecker

In most cases, it was rarely one person, but the entire cabinet, or hell, government that was so ruthless that even the Soviets wished they'd get easy on their populace, which they knew was impossible if they wanted to keep these countries in the communist camp. It was basically a (seemingly) never-ending circle of oppression and silencing, until the people couldn't take it anymore, and communism ultimately fell.

The DDR was bad, Romania was very bad. Show me at least a million dead bodies (and millions other broken in the Gulags) from 1945 to 1991 in any of the satellite states and we are then on a level playing field. (I reduced the number murdered to match the difference in population, allowing for the harsher regimes)

Honecker was a pig. However, compared to ANY of the Soviet leaders (save, perhaps, Gorby) he was a choir boy.
 
What would the world be like if the Soviet Union survived to this day? I think that it would just be cool, because the USSR and USA were very similar. Both had constitutions gauranteeing freedom of speach, religion, etc.

Perhaps the Soviet Union would change to democracy with the continued reforms of Gorbuchev. The Soviet Union wouldn't be exactly like the United States, perhaps with a more parliamentary system, where each SSR has elections for a representitive to the Grand Soviet every 2 or something years, and every 4 years they elect a General Secretary or something. I'm not too familiar with the Soviet system.

It would truely be a freaky twin of the US. It's just funny to think of how despite their differences, the US and USSR had a lot in common. The US throught it's history hasn't exactly been an angel, keep that in mind.

So, if the Soviet Union managed to keep itself together, what might the world be like today? It's likely from 1991 to 2008 the USA and USSR would be a bit more friendly. Despite some difference in interests, the Cold War wouldn't be too much of how it was during the late 20th century. I'd like to see an alternate history fiction where the Soviet Union and United States work together to fight terrorism and yada yada.

Have you given much thought to the matter of their apparent similarity? Basically, the USSR was a tops-down project, with decisions coming from high up and a massive central state swallowing up surrounding areas. The US was the exact opposite, with small states banding together into a coherent whole. They are built on wholly different principles, coercion and cooperation. This also explains why the Soviet Union fell apart as it did; the same wouldn't happen with America if it was suddenly left leaderless, even after a supposed period of dictatorship. It is also a matter of democracy; whereas the US was a republic from the start, the people of Russia have essentially never in history enjoyed true democracy. This influences the mindset of both rulers and subjects. So they are essentially very different.

For example, despite the popular misconception, Gorbachev's reforms were never about democratising the system, but only about making it more stream-lined and effective. He basically thought that for the USSR to be competitive, it had to make better use of initiative, allow criticism and generally be more pragmatic. Thus, while allowing some liberalisation, the Communist system would remain in place, complete with dictatorship/oligarchy and Democratic Centralism. This is similar to how the late Romanovs reasoned, or for that matter to how China has progressed.

The Soviet Union would never turn democratic voluntarily; there'd have to be some sort of upheaval, as there was IOTL. Even so, democracy didn't catch very well; after the initial experiment, manipulated voting etc returned right away. I'm not just talking Putin; it began under Yeltsin, though it wasn't as clearly visible then (mostly thanks to more optimistic media).

So, while the scenario you posit is interesting, it's not very plausible.
 
Originally posted by FallenMorgan
The thing with the communist governments in Poland or the DDR is that they were ten times more oppressive than the Soviet Union's.
Oh, please, let's not exagerate, OK? I can not speak for DDR, but Poland? After stalinist times (in Poland it ended 1956) it was most liberal state of Eastern Bloc. It certainly wasn't paradise, but I can assure you it was much better than Soviet Union (yes, I'm Polish). For many intellectuals from Eastern Europe Poland became an open window to the west, because Polish censorship was not so harsh as Soviet one, and in Polish papers you could read thing absolutely banned in rest of the EB. A joke from that time says: "Poland is the merriest barrack in whole socialist camp".
And as far as stalinist times goes, it wasn't worse than in USSR - it was pretty much the same. Many of stalinist butchers left Poland after 1956 (like Rokossovski), because they were Soviets, often with Polish roots. The rest, unfortunately, remained in Poland and lived there unpunished.
 
On the off chance that this is unknown on this forum, I just wanted to draw attention to this very enjoyable alternate hisory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoDominium


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The fictional CoDominium universe is a future history (now alternate history) setting for the books in the CoDominium Series by Jerry Pournelle.
The point of departure of Pournelle's history is the establishment of the CoDominium, a political alliance and union between the United States of America and a revitalized USSR. This union, achieved in the name of planetary stability, reigns over the Earth for over a hundred years. In that time, it achieves peace of a sort, as well as interstellar colonization, but at the price of a complete halt in research, development, and political evolution
 
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