Soviet to Nazi Lend-Lease

If for some reason Nazi Germany did not launch Operation Barbarossa, would it be conceivable for the Nazis to begin buying or being loaned Soviet armaments? Panzer divisions equipped with T-34s and all that. How would Britain (and later possibly the USA) react? What kind of concessions would Stalin try to extract in exchange? How desperate would the Nazis have to be to accept aid from their worst enemies? My understanding is that Germany was using raw materials from the USSR to supply their war machine under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, but how can this be expanded?
 
Poor chance for that, IMO. Stalin was paranoid, so he wouldn't have sold his best weapons to Germany. Also Germans had rather low opinion about quality of Soviet equipment. Germans might have copied some of Soviet ideas (not very probable) but they wouldn't have bought Soviet equipment in any significant numbers. IIRC Soviets were more interested in buying some German weapons, mostly to improve their own designs.
Anyway, I believe that the deal Germany and USSR had IOTL was most satisfying for both sides. Germans had access to raw materials their industry needed to produce high quality equipment (in German opinion); Soviets had way to sell their raw materials and some access to advanced technology they wanted and sometimes needed. German weapon makers prefered to use their own ideas, Soviet constructors used their own ideas and any idea they could steal or buy.
 

b12ox

Banned
surely not T34. it was a secret weapon. No one would sell its best stuff when clouds gather. The russians wouldnt even show it, so how coud they sell it.
 
If for some reason Nazi Germany did not launch Operation Barbarossa, would it be conceivable for the Nazis to begin buying or being loaned Soviet armaments? Panzer divisions equipped with T-34s and all that. How would Britain (and later possibly the USA) react? What kind of concessions would Stalin try to extract in exchange? How desperate would the Nazis have to be to accept aid from their worst enemies? My understanding is that Germany was using raw materials from the USSR to supply their war machine under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, but how can this be expanded?

The Soviets would give the Nazis money and exact a sequence of territorial concessions rigged to be as one-sided in their favor as possible. Never underestimate Communists at the negotiating table.
 
At least this has to succeed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Axis_talks#The_October_Stalin.E2.80.93Ribbentrop_exchange
So, Second Mol-Rib pact has to happen, probably with it - dividing Finland (Soviet second chance), Sweden (bases for red army) and India (yea, this means Soviet-UK war) plus question of Bulgarian status would be open. To my knowledge it isn't clear what would Germans gain in such second "lets divide the world" pact. Still, if Soviets would invade India, there might be some exchange of military materials between Germany and India in addition to already existing exchange of raw and industrial stuffs.
 
surely not T34. it was a secret weapon. No one would sell its best stuff when clouds gather. The russians wouldnt even show it, so how coud they sell it.

If you produce several thousand of something, especially a front-line weapon like the T-34, it's not a secret anymore. If there was a secret, it was the extent of its capabilities, and that applies to every weapon before combat trials.
 
At least this has to succeed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Axis_talks#The_October_Stalin.E2.80.93Ribbentrop_exchange
So, Second Mol-Rib pact has to happen, probably with it - dividing Finland (Soviet second chance), Sweden (bases for red army) and India (yea, this means Soviet-UK war) plus question of Bulgarian status would be open. To my knowledge it isn't clear what would Germans gain in such second "lets divide the world" pact. Still, if Soviets would invade India, there might be some exchange of military materials between Germany and India in addition to already existing exchange of raw and industrial stuffs.

The Soviets weren't the least bit interested in a war with the UK, they were angling to expands their sphere in Europe. The idea of the Nazis adhering to a pact with anyone, ESPECIALLY the state their movement fapped to destroying without a trace, well......
 
Poor chance for that, IMO. Stalin was paranoid, so he wouldn't have sold his best weapons to Germany. Also Germans had rather low opinion about quality of Soviet equipment. Germans might have copied some of Soviet ideas (not very probable) but they wouldn't have bought Soviet equipment in any significant numbers. IIRC Soviets were more interested in buying some German weapons, mostly to improve their own designs.
Anyway, I believe that the deal Germany and USSR had IOTL was most satisfying for both sides. Germans had access to raw materials their industry needed to produce high quality equipment (in German opinion); Soviets had way to sell their raw materials and some access to advanced technology they wanted and sometimes needed. German weapon makers prefered to use their own ideas, Soviet constructors used their own ideas and any idea they could steal or buy.
The Germans happily used captured pieces of Soviet equipment. Actually the Germans were pretty much happy to capture anything from the nations they fought.

Equipment is equipment, even crappy equipment can be used for something. In war if its avaliable and vaguely usable in some form then it will be used.
 
Originally posted by Kome
The Germans happily used captured pieces of Soviet equipment. Actually the Germans were pretty much happy to capture anything from the nations they fought.
Equipment is equipment, even crappy equipment can be used for something. In war if its avaliable and vaguely usable in some form then it will be used.


Sure, but if there is no war between Germany and USSR German needs are much smaller and German or German controlled industry can produce enough equipment for Wehrmacht.
Yes, at the front line you use what you have, but the Eastern Front was a gigantic one, so Germany had no choice. Without Soviet-German war what campaign would be so big drain on resources? Africa? Send 20 divisions there and the British are screwed.
There is also a tiny thing called logistics. If you use a foreign equipment, you need full access to spare parts, possibly different kinds of ammunition, etc. Germans could have used captured European and Soviet equipment because they usually also captured factories producing that equipment (or enormous numbers of said equipment), so they had no problem with, I don't know, spare parts for a Renault track. But using Soviet equipment without industrial base for it would make German Army at least partly dependant on Soviet good will - Hitler would have never gone for it.
 
Africa? Send 20 divisions there and the British are screwed.
Well, no, a 20 division Afrikaarmee would be immobile due to a lack of fuel & ammunition:p Libya's ports were small, the railways nearly inexistent and the roads poor. At El-Alamein Rommel's logistic trail consisted of trucks riding all the way back to Tobruk & Benghazi (400 & 800km away). What the Axis needed in Africa were better developed ports at Tobruk & Benghazi in addition to a decent railway all the way to the front line.

OT, Nazi Germany actually buying weapons & matériel from the USSR is highly improbable, they'd stick to raw materials such as oil & steel to build their own stuff with. And they could produce enough themselves without a hungry Ostfront devouring hundreds of tanks & aircraft per month.
 

b12ox

Banned
If you produce several thousand of something, especially a front-line weapon like the T-34, it's not a secret anymore. If there was a secret, it was the extent of its capabilities, and that applies to every weapon before combat trials.
If you produce several thousnd od something, you are better off to run it through trials before producing it. It was a secret kept from german eyes and succesfully so. Cooperation between german and russian miltary pre-war went a long way, but never to full extend from the russian viewpoint. They believed that germans kept their wunderwaffen stored tight, just like they did.
 
The Soviets would give the Nazis money and exact a sequence of territorial concessions rigged to be as one-sided in their favor as possible. Never underestimate Communists at the negotiating table.

Brest Litovsk disagree's with you as does the follow up berlin access treaties after the airlift
 
Brest Litovsk disagree's with you as does the follow up berlin access treaties after the airlift

To be fair, the Soviets at that point were motivated by Trotsky's position of 'give them whatever they want because it will be irrelevant when the revolution comes, just end the war', the foreign policy of 'Socialism in one country' was a bit sharper.
 
To be fair, the Soviets at that point were motivated by Trotsky's position of 'give them whatever they want because it will be irrelevant when the revolution comes, just end the war', the foreign policy of 'Socialism in one country' was a bit sharper.

That was the second round... what about rejecting the terms the first time through? Should we call that skillful negotiating if it precipitated a mass invasion followed by much harsher terms than originally offered :D
 
That was the second round... what about rejecting the terms the first time through? Should we call that skillful negotiating if it precipitated a mass invasion followed by much harsher terms than originally offered :D

I never said they were skillful negotiators, when you tend you randomly select an illiterate peasant as your 'agricultural spokesperson' it rarely goes well. :p
 
To be fair, the Soviets at that point were motivated by Trotsky's position of 'give them whatever they want because it will be irrelevant when the revolution comes, just end the war', the foreign policy of 'Socialism in one country' was a bit sharper.

This is incorrect. Trotsky was part of the faction that didn't want to give the German's anything at all. Most of the party was with him. It was Lenin who wanted it signed because he knew the Germans couldn't be stopped.

Initially Trotsky refused to sign and simply announced "No peace, no war." Germans started advancing then and brushed aside all opposition. Then the government capitulated and gave the Germans even more than what they had initially asked for, because otherwise the entire Red government was going to collapse.

The example is irrelevant to this thread's discussion because the Soviets had almost no negotiating power or leverage. They tried to play hardball nad delay things (because Trotsky thought a Red Revolution would break out in Berlin and end the war), but eventually the Germans got tired of it and told their troops to start marching again.
 
Like the real Lend / Lease Germany should ask for all the behind the scenes stuff vs. front line military equipment like tanks.

Germany could use Russian ports and slips to build lower end naval stuff, R-boat, S-Boat, submarines, small destroyers, MFPs and such craft, things needed in the Med and Channel.

Germany could ask for Russian transport aircraft, also useful in the med and in an English Invasion. Or maybe a few long range bombers like a Yer 2 instead of or supplementing using Condors in the Atlantic.

Such aid might be even more useful to the Italians or Japanese.

Unsure how the Soviets could get talked into doing this though.

What the Axis really need is use of the Trans-Siberian railway once the Japanese are in the war.
 
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