Does this really work in that can the torpedo be pre programmed or directed by other platforms to the target if its not simply in its own detection range? Does ASROC in at least its early versions not simply drop a homing torpedo on top of the predicted sub and then it circles by itself to find it using up most of its range unless the target is very noisy and obvious?
Soviet navy post 1955
- Thread starter Khanzeer
- Start date
I don't think the Mark 46 or other lightweight torpedoes can be programmed to a target regardless, so that range should mean the maximum distance from the launch point that a target can be detected and engaged with the search pattern. After all, they launch these torpedoes from surface ships with no preprogrammed target either, and they certainly don't expect to be on top of the submarine when that happens.
The ASROC goes to a certain spot and drops the torpedo. The torpedo is now on its on. It can be programmed for different searches. Active vs passive sonar. Dive below the layer before going active, go active immediately, search in a circle or other patterns. A MK48 sub launched torpedo is wire guided. You can do all sorts of cool stuff while the wire is attached. The sub vs sub action in Red Storm Rising describes this very well.
The problem with ship ASW is that ships can’t find the sub. Then if they do find it, the sub can clear the area incredibly fast. That and the sub operates in 3D. Not only is it going away very fast, it’s going under the layer which makes it very hard to track.
There is a reason carrier battle groups have a sub assigned. ASW. 688s were designed specifically to escort carriers.
If there had been a shooting war the Soviet surface Navy would have been target practice for SSNs.
We have a saying on subs; There are two types of ships, subs and targets.
The problem with ship ASW is that ships can’t find the sub. Then if they do find it, the sub can clear the area incredibly fast. That and the sub operates in 3D. Not only is it going away very fast, it’s going under the layer which makes it very hard to track.
There is a reason carrier battle groups have a sub assigned. ASW. 688s were designed specifically to escort carriers.
If there had been a shooting war the Soviet surface Navy would have been target practice for SSNs.
We have a saying on subs; There are two types of ships, subs and targets.
Well, bubbleheads do have an attitude. Air ASW can find them and track them and they won't know the MPA aircraft is there until the weapon hits the water.(1) Likewise subs hate helos, especially when working in pairs with dipping sonar - one dips the other goes down the track and a sub cannot outrun a helo. BTW if a sub goes fast they make a lot of noise. Now subs are tough to deal with but in no way invulnerable.
(1) yes, sometimes with a very calm sea and the MPA aircraft at very low altitude theplane can be noted on sonar...butn this is rare and requires just so conditons.
(1) yes, sometimes with a very calm sea and the MPA aircraft at very low altitude theplane can be noted on sonar...butn this is rare and requires just so conditons.
Submarines usually carry extremely capable sonar domes over 6 meters in diameter weighing several tons and very large towed sonar arrays, with their sensitivity further increased by the quietness of the submarines they are mounted on. They still end up being followed unaware by other submarines for months and once crashed into each other because submarines are so quiet that even those sensors can't detect submarines right in front of them.
With that knowledge, a 50 kg, .5 meter diameter sonobuoy or dipping sonar has little chance of finding or tracking submarines in the first place, not unless the submarine is much less advanced or incompetently crewed.
The post Cold War Army version of that quote is that there are two types of soldiers; Infantry and hostages.
I don't downgrade what modern subs can do, and respect them and the folks who are on them. Sonobuoys (laid in fields) work passively, and also actively if need be. Helo dipping sonars are generally active. You can track nukes and diesel electric even AIP subs with air ASW of various sorts. The problem subs have is if they want to be a quiet hole in the water they need to be at the right depth (depends on water conditions) and going slowly. This works well for boomers who cruise around in a "box" within range of their targets with no place to go. For attack subs, they need to get to where the targets are, and unless they manage to place themselves where the targets are coming right to them, can't do this.
Yes nukes are as fast, or faster than warships and certainly merchant vessels. However the faster a nuke goes the more noise it puts in the water. Passive detection can pick them up pretty far away, also a nuke at high speed is reducing the effectiveness of its own sonar, and clearing baffles is a bigger deal. Nukes use max speed only to clear datum (and then go quiet), to evade attack etc. While speed is not relevant against active detection, it is key for passive detection. Submarines live by being invisible, put a lot of noise in the water and you might as well shine a spotlight.
For diesel-electric subs, run fast and deplete your batteries quickly, which could be suicidal. Using the snorkel and running diesels while submerged has limitations on how fast you can go based on sea state, and the more you run you diesels with snorkel the more time you are making a lot of noise. Running on the surface lets you get there fastest, and puts less noise out than submerged but still a lot, and of course you are visible to radar and the naked eye.
In many ways the transit from homeport to where you want to operate is the chanciest part of the journey for the submarine. Potential chokepoints and barrier ops, the issue of how fast versus how quiet and so forth.
For diesel-electric subs, run fast and deplete your batteries quickly, which could be suicidal. Using the snorkel and running diesels while submerged has limitations on how fast you can go based on sea state, and the more you run you diesels with snorkel the more time you are making a lot of noise. Running on the surface lets you get there fastest, and puts less noise out than submerged but still a lot, and of course you are visible to radar and the naked eye.
In many ways the transit from homeport to where you want to operate is the chanciest part of the journey for the submarine. Potential chokepoints and barrier ops, the issue of how fast versus how quiet and so forth.
Barry Bull
Donor
The ocean is vast and an area that can be covered by a submarine, even modern nuclear ones, is limited.
Does this really work in that can the torpedo be pre programmed or directed by other platforms to the target if its not simply in its own detection range? Does ASROC in at least its early versions not simply drop a homing torpedo on top of the predicted sub and then it circles by itself to find it using up most of its range unless the target is very noisy and obvious?
Good diagram , but without reference to sonar system capabilities its too hard to judge.
With MATCH WESP/LYNX the helicopter is relying on frigate sonar , which was pretty useless if its type-177,. But the type 2016 and follow on towed arrays ,allow convergence zone coverage that can surprise the SSN etc.
That might make enough noise to be detectable at a reasonable range by surface ship sonar domes and towed sonar, but not by sonobuoys or dipping sonar. Even with the speed those systems are very small and necessarily weak.
@AJE : While my experience with these systems is in the past, let me just say that sonobuoys are quite capable of detecting nukes even at low speed, and at higher speeds even more so. They are also used in groups in a field based on current water conditions (direct path, convergence zones and so forth.