Soviet Italy, Consequences for the Vatican?

Some way or another (POD isnt important) the Soviets manage to take the Italian peninsula and declare an Italian People's Republic with OTL borders post WW2. The Pope and the Eternal City are obviously going to remain untouched, not even Mussolini's Fascists dared take action against them. (in fact it was Mussolini regime that drew up the treaty that gave the Vatican sovereignty, but that's a different story). The Soviets will likely keep the Pope confined to the Vatican while trying to dismantle the church in the rest of the country (much like they did with the Russian Patriarch, leader of the Orthodox Church). The problem is that much like the Patriarch the Pope chosen will be nothing more than a complacent puppet for the Communists. Do the Allies accept this? Might they declare the Vatican under the occupation of a godless regime and establish a rival seat for the papacy where the Pope could be chosen freely/democratically (the logical place for this is Avignon, France). Or would other action be taken?


TL;DR - Italy goes Communist post WW2, Pope is a Soviet puppet, do the Allies create a rival legitimate papacy to counter the Communist controlled one?
 
Almost certainly. I don't think it'd be in Avignon (some bad historical baggage there), though. Someone mentioned Brazil as the site of OTL plans for a Holy See emergency relocation not long ago, and that seems reasonably likely to me although I'd love to learn more. Somewhere else in France is possible, too, or maybe Cologne, Germany? (We could make Ian Paisley's head explode by having an English Papacy. :D)
 
During WWII there was a plan that if the Papacy were to fall to hostile hands, Pius XII would resign, and a conclave would be held in Portugal to elect another Pope. Something similar would happen in this situation.
 
During WWII there was a plan that if the Papacy were to fall to hostile hands, Pius XII would resign, and a conclave would be held in Portugal to elect another Pope. Something similar would happen in this situation.

Do you have a source for this? I'd love to read more.

(And d'oh, Fatima is perfect for the Free Papacy.)
 
How do the Soviets impose a new pope? I mean they could do so with the Patriarch since the Russian Orthodox church was...well...Russian. But the Papacy is an institution with electees being drawn (theoretically) from an international group of cardinals.

Though I suppose that since this is the 1940s the possibility of a non Italian pope would be unlikely...

But still, what's to stop the College of Cardinals resolutely defying the Soviets and electing popes who won't be Soviet puppets
 

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The Soviets would be better off capturing the pope and as many cardinals as they can find, keeping them from talking to the outside world. They could then sit back and watch the Catholic Church balkanize because only the pope can select new cardinals and any selection of a new pope would have the taint of possibly being an anti-pope. It's rather poor organizational structure to have the head of a highly centralized organization as the only person who can select those beneath him, as if you cut off the head the organization is unable to recover.
 
I don't see the Church as being at risk of Balkanization in this scenario. The Curia will leave Italy for one of the western democracies, where it will declare the throne of Peter vacant. The College of Cardinals will then go into Conclave and elect a Pope, who's first order of business will be to declare the Soviet's puppet as an anti-Pope.
 
The Soviets don't like religion, but I don't think they care very much about actually destroying international religions institutions- just national ones in the countries they control. Why would they go out of their way to attack the RCC without provocation?
 
The Soviets don't like religion, but I don't think they care very much about actually destroying international religions institutions- just national ones in the countries they control. Why would they go out of their way to attack the RCC without provocation?

I don't that they would actively try to demolish the Papacy, as that could have very significant blowback and damage their credibility, such as it is, but on the other hand Communism is explicitly atheist, and therefore anti-clerical.
 
How do the Soviets impose a new pope? I mean they could do so with the Patriarch since the Russian Orthodox church was...well...Russian. But the Papacy is an institution with electees being drawn (theoretically) from an international group of cardinals.

Though I suppose that since this is the 1940s the possibility of a non Italian pope would be unlikely...

But still, what's to stop the College of Cardinals resolutely defying the Soviets and electing popes who won't be Soviet puppets

The Soviets wont impose a new pope they will just make sure the pope who is elected stays quiet, not unlike the patriarch (the soviets didnt impose patriarchs either, they just made sure the one who was ultimately elected was collaborative, the same would be true of the Pope). So while its true controlling the electors in Russia was easy because it was home soil the Soviets would just leave it to the (Communist) Italians to chose their own Italian electors.

Id imagine electees would be drawn mostly from Italy, (as per OTL) the Eastern Bloc, non-aligned bloc, and sympathizers from Allied countries (or at least ones who will stay quiet on non-religious issues). This would give the papacy a semblance of legitimacy while the Soviets work through their puppet Italians.

The Soviets would be better off capturing the pope and as many cardinals as they can find, keeping them from talking to the outside world. They could then sit back and watch the Catholic Church balkanize because only the pope can select new cardinals and any selection of a new pope would have the taint of possibly being an anti-pope.

I agree the Soviets would gather up the cardinals they could find and keep them quiet, but why would they anger the catholic world needlessly when they could just have the pope appoint (Communist) Italian cardinals who would naturally be collaborative. That way the Soviets have legitimacy and a puppet pope.

The Soviets don't like religion, but I don't think they care very much about actually destroying international religions institutions- just national ones in the countries they control. Why would they go out of their way to attack the RCC without provocation?
The Soviets aren't going to demolish the Church or try to render it invalid, its most useful to just use the whole organization as propaganda.
 
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One could also see the Pope in Rome become a big supporter of Liberation Theology once it's developed, which would have some big effects in Latin America as that becomes more and more popular with the clergy there.
 
I don't see the Church as being at risk of Balkanization in this scenario. The Curia will leave Italy for one of the western democracies, where it will declare the throne of Peter vacant. The College of Cardinals will then go into Conclave and elect a Pope, who's first order of business will be to declare the Soviet's puppet as an anti-Pope.

How? A couple of cardinals might escape, but theyre pretty high profile, and any nkvd/kgb man who let one escape would .... not be happy, shall we say.
 
How? A couple of cardinals might escape, but theyre pretty high profile, and any nkvd/kgb man who let one escape would .... not be happy, shall we say.

Because unless they conquer Italy in just a couple of days there will be plenty of time for organize somekind of escape route for various cardinals (who are not all in Rome) and probably even the Pope, this is not really a scenario who will take the various catholics potentate really astonished.
 
Because unless they conquer Italy in just a couple of days there will be plenty of time for organize somekind of escape route for various cardinals (who are not all in Rome) and probably even the Pope, this is not really a scenario who will take the various catholics potentate really astonished.

Correct. While there are some Cardinals who are permanently assigned to Rome, most of them are scattered all over the world. Arranging a Conclave won't be that hard.
 
During WWII there was a plan that if the Papacy were to fall to hostile hands, Pius XII would resign, and a conclave would be held in Portugal to elect another Pope. Something similar would happen in this situation.

I agree with this.

Something some posters should remember is that the Vatican is its own international state. Italy being Communist doesn't mean the Vatican is ruled by Communists; it would simply be surrounded by Communists. Communists would not be able to appoint their own Pope or force it to do anything.

If Communist Italy invades the Vatican, it would cause international outrage. If Communist Italy attempts to coerce the Vatican by shutting off power, preventing transit, etc. it will cause international outrage. In either scenario, the Vatican staff will flee Rome like it did during the Italian Wars. The Pope and everyone else won't just sit there to be taken.

Assuming Rome is no longer safe for the Bishop of Rome to lead the Church, the College of Cardinals and Catholic theologians will get together to work out what to do next. Since there is historical precedent with the Avignon Papacy, the papal seat will likely just move elsewhere.

However, the most likely scenario is that the Communists won't dare touch the Vatican, and the Pope becomes a rallying point for anti-Communist dissent in Italy, gravely hurting the ability of the Communists to control the country.
 
The first thing to go, or at least be really diminished, would be the ratlines to South America. Pacelli would have reached an accommodation with a Soviet controlled Italy just like he did with Mussolini and Hitler. While his anticommunism probably was sincere it is a lot safer when the United States Army and A bombs stand between you and the Red Army. I do think that Pacelli and the Curia would have gone someplace in South America. The United States would not do because they did not want to be too overtly linked with either side in the Cold War. Several have suggested Brazil which makes a lot of sense but an alternative approach would have been to go to some relatively small Caribbean Island and recreate the Papal States. I think the best assumptions are that Pacelli remains pope and dies as he did in 1958. This would make for a very interesting conclave. Would the resident Italian cardinals be allowed to attend? Would leading papal contenders like Roncalli, he later called himself John XIII, been assigned to Italian dioceses? Would Pacilli appointed more non Italians if he were based someplace in the Americas? You sure could write an interesting alternative history on this one.
 
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