Soviet Fighter Developement- no SU collapse

[AdA]

What the hell is that? Looks like MiG-29 got pregnant with F-15.

MiG I-144
It was going to be the USSR 5th Gen fighter, then the USSR colapsed and it become a underfunded private venture that went nowhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_Project_1.44

I think it's one of the best looking modern fighter designs

 

[SactoMan101]

If the Soviet Union did not collapse, here's what I think will happen:

1. The MiG-29 will continue in development, and will be widely exported as a counter to the F-16. The Klimov RD-33 engines would have been improved, including lower fuel burn and a far less "smoky" exhaust.

2. The Su-27 will likely be slowly phased out as a fighter, though the Su-34 will be developed to completion and will be rapidly replacing the Su-24 as the main interdiction aircraft.

3. The MiG I.42 project will become the next true air superiority fighter and will by 1998-1999 start replacing the Su-27 and will be built to counter the F-22A.

 

[omnimercurial]

Would the Yak 141 become mass produced or would it become the seed for a new design instead?

 

[AdA]

Would the Yak 141 become mass produced or would it become the seed for a new design instead?

The new carriers would use the MiG29K. as the Indian navy as discovered, converting the Kievs to use the MoG29K is not impossible, just very expensive and slow, the soviet navy would probably go for the MiG29K solution and shelve the Yak 141.

 

[sharlin]

Hrm, assuming a liberalisation of the Soviet system and a more Chinese approach to how things were run, continued glasnost etc so it does not feel like nukes are going to fly at a moments notice as well as economic reforms to keep the USSR going...

The MiG-29 was meant to be the 'cheap' fighter the replacement for the MiG-21/23 whilst the SU-27 was the big top end fighter that would have probably gone to the PVO as the main priority whilst the 29 would become the common mainline fighter.

The SU-27 also has greater development potential so we could see that being grown to replace the SU-25 and SU-24 over time.

Badgers would probably be retired or sold off to client/friendly states and the Backfire would become the main bomber whilst the Blackjack would probably continue at low rate production, mainly limited by their massive costs.

What we'd have to look at the Soviets being rational and getting rid of a LOT of their obsolete equipment. If given ASB powers and the ability to alter minds i'd do the following.


Airforce.

*gone = scrapped, sold, decomissioned etc, not kept in storage, got rid off. Keeping things mothballed costs money. The metal is better off in a new role rather than sitting around in a 20 year old jet.

ALL MIG-21's save basic trainers Gone.
MiG-23s - gone
MiG-27s - Gone
Badgers - Gone
SU-22's and 17's - Gone.

Push for an increase in 29/27 production the result would be a smaller airforce but one better equipped to fight a modern war.

Army.

T-62's - Gone. Fucking useless things that were worse than the tank they replaced.
De-mobilize a lot of the Category C units, scrapping/selling their equipment. This goes for the old WW2 stocks that were kept around, we don't need some IS tanks sitting around 'just in case' scrap the damn things.
BMP-1 moved to Category B units, replaced with the BMP-2
All BTR-60's moved to Category B units, any older BTR's - Gone.
Increased production of T-72s.
T-64's - moved to mothballs - unreliable and costly.
Keep development of the T-72 going to see what it can do in terms of design stretch, no need to make the T-80 if you can evolve the 72 into the 90.
ZSU-52-2 - gone

there's probably a LOT more to be done.

Retire obsolete SAM's, get rid of SA-2, 3 and 5. Push for production of SA-10 as the main army missile with the SA-12 being for fixed defences. SA-8 and SA-6 to be upgraded as much as possible but also work on replacements.



Navy.

Submarine force.

SSBN's
Delta I and II - retired and scrapped.
Yankee - Retired and scrapped.
Delta III - consider conversion into SSGN cruise missile sub.
Delta IV - repeat production
Typhoon - Halt construction at 6.

SSN's

November - retire and scrap.
Alfa - Retire and scrap - far too unreliable and unsafe.
Victor I - retire and scrap
Victor II - begin phased withdrawl and scrapping.
Victor III - retain.
Akula - Concentrate production to make mainline submarine, when one comissions, remove a Victor II.
Sierra class - cancel construction to focus on Akula class.

SSGN's

Echo - retire and scrap
Charlie 1 - retire and scrap.
Charlie II - Retain until replaced by..
Oscar - Upgrade all Oscar to Oscar II standard - continue to produce to replace older SSGNs.

SSK's

Whiskey - Retire and scrap
Romeo - See above
Foxtrot - see above
Tango - Retain as training boats
Kilo - continue production and see what the hull can be improved to do. Push for exports market.

Surface ships.

Kiev Class - Modernise and upgrade to same standards as the Admiral Gorshikov.
Moskva class - scrap/sell.
Ulyanovsk - prioritise for completion.
Kirov class - Modernise and upgrade
Slava class - continue production and look into making a multi-role cruiser
Kynda, Kresta I and II - scrap.
Kara - modernise and update weapons/sensors.
Begin design of a AA cruiser/GP cruiser hull for fleet defence.
Sverdlov - scrap/museiums.

Skoryy, Kotlin, Kidlin, Krupny, Kanin - Scrap they are utterly obsolete.
Kashin - Upgrade to Kashin II at least.
Sovremenny/Udaloy - Continue production.
Krivak class - Begin modernisation of Krivak I and II to Krivak IV standards, retain Krivak III, look at what the hull could be developed into.
Grisha - Modernise.
Riga, Petya, Mirka, Koni - Gone

This is just off the top of my head..there's a lot to be done. The massed disarmament would calm western fears, save money and possibly lead to a more professional armed forces for the Soviet Union.

 

[NothingNow]

The MiG MFI would probably end up entering service in the mid 90's, and would probably be the new High-end and multi-role fighter for the VVS while updated Flankers and Foxhounds remained in service with the PVO.

The S-37 testbed would probably lead somewhere interesting as well, but I'm not sure what exactly it'd lead to. Forward Swept wings aren't really suitable for mass-production yet, just because of materials limitations.

TBH, I could see the Su-33 remaining as the AVMF's decision for a carrier fighter, given it's increased range and more suitable handling characteristics than the MiG-29K (which just has better air to ground software.)

Plus, given the size of the Kuznetsov-class and Project 1143.7/Ulyanovsk-class carriers, the larger size of the Su-33 isn't as much of a disadvantage as it is on the Vikramaditya.

The MiG-29 was meant to be the 'cheap' fighter the replacement for the MiG-21/23 whilst the SU-27 was the big top end fighter that would have probably gone to the PVO as the main priority whilst the 29 would become the common mainline fighter.

Yeah. It was always intended for the two to be a High-Low mix in places. The MiG-29 could be based further forward than the Flanker, and could do the job needed of it, while Su-27 squadrons focused more on gaining Air superiority, and escorting attacks on rear areas.
That said, the basic Su-27 was too short ranged for what the PVO was expecting doctrinally, so the Su-30 was developed to suit it's needs.

The MiG-31 OTOH was purely intended for the PVO from the get-go, and was replacing the MiG-25 pretty quickly. They'd likely be getting a Midlife update right about now ITTL to hold them over till a replacement was finished.

The SU-27 also has greater development potential so we could see that being grown to replace the SU-25 and SU-24 over time.

Su-24 yes, Su-25 no. The Su-25 was developed after soviet experimentation with fast moving CAS aircraft revealed them to be less than optimal in their intended role.

The Su-34 would see production earlier, and would fill most of the Su-24's (and maybe some of the Tu-22's) role as a Naval Strike and special missions aircraft, while Su-30 would end up as a secondary interceptor for the PVO and maybe serve as a swing-role strike fighter and flying command post with the VVS.

Badgers would probably be retired or sold off to client/friendly states and the Backfire would become the main bomber whilst the Blackjack would probably continue at low rate production, mainly limited by their massive costs.

Most of the Tu-16 fleet would be too worn out at that point. They'd probably just be scrapped, and the metal sold off, except for a few Tu-16 tankers which would be kept around by the VVS and AVMF for refueling Tu-22Ms and Su-34s.
I really don't see the Soviet union keeping huge, comparatively inefficient Tu-22s around long after the Su-34 enters service, since it's in all respects a much worse aircraft for the mission, excepting it's ability to carry a single Kh-22/AS-4 sized missile.

As for the Tu-22M and Tu-160, that sounds about right. The AVMF would probably continue to operate a respectably sized fleet of Tu-95 missile carriers and Tu-142 MPA/ASW airframes along side their Tu-22Ms and Su-34s because of their unique performance characteristics and durability.

Meanwhile, the Beriev A-40 would replace the Be-12 and Il-38, and probably become a decent export earner because no-one else would be selling a good SAR and Firefighting Amphibian in the same size range (the only aircraft that really comparable in capacity are the Martin Mars conversions, and those are significantly slower, if capable of carrying more on a single drop.)

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

Retire obsolete SAM's, get rid of SA-2, 3 and 5. Push for production of SA-10 as the main army missile with the SA-12 being for fixed defences. SA-8 and SA-6 to be upgraded as much as possible but also work on replacements.

Actually, SA-12 is the Army's SAM(SA-4 replacement), while the SA-10 is PVO(SA-2/SA-5 replacement). SA-11 replaces SA-6(as well as SA-3), while 2S6 Tunguska seems to be the SA-8 replacement.

Navy.

Submarine force.

SSBN's
Delta I and II - retired and scrapped.
Yankee - Retired and scrapped.
Delta III - consider conversion into SSGN cruise missile sub.
Delta IV - repeat production
Typhoon - Halt construction at 6.

Delta IIIs would be poor SSGNs, big and noisy. I suppose if you want strategic cruise missile boats, you can:

1) Convert Yankees(one or two were converted to fire SS-NX-24);
2) Build an Oscar variant(don't know how desirable it would be to blur the line between tactical and strategical units in this case);
3) Build a new class(Soviets had a few SSGN projects that weren't built; one of them was bigger than Oscar, and I think Delta III);
4) Use Akula in the role(I think that was the Soviet Navy's idea; the Akulas have 6 SS-N-21 tubes after all, and no other contemporary Soviet SSN class had these tubes).

Typhoon is too big and expensive, but I think the Soviets would build 7(one submarine squadron), and have the Delta IVs replace all other SSBNs.

SSN's

November - retire and scrap.
Alfa - Retire and scrap - far too unreliable and unsafe.
Victor I - retire and scrap
Victor II - begin phased withdrawl and scrapping.
Victor III - retain.
Akula - Concentrate production to make mainline submarine, when one comissions, remove a Victor II.
Sierra class - cancel construction to focus on Akula class.

Agree with Alfa, November and Victor fates. I think the Soviets would go for a Sierra/Mike mix as their new SSNs, with the Akulas being used more in a SSGN role, as said before.

SSGN's

Echo - retire and scrap
Charlie 1 - retire and scrap.
Charlie II - Retain until replaced by..
Oscar - Upgrade all Oscar to Oscar II standard - continue to produce to replace older SSGNs.

SSK's

Whiskey - Retire and scrap
Romeo - See above
Foxtrot - see above
Tango - Retain as training boats
Kilo - continue production and see what the hull can be improved to do. Push for exports market.

Agree with all of these.

Surface ships.

Kiev Class - Modernise and upgrade to same standards as the Admiral Gorshikov.
Moskva class - scrap/sell.
Ulyanovsk - prioritise for completion.
Kirov class - Modernise and upgrade
Slava class - continue production and look into making a multi-role cruiser
Kynda, Kresta I and II - scrap.
Kara - modernise and update weapons/sensors.
Begin design of a AA cruiser/GP cruiser hull for fleet defence.
Sverdlov - scrap/museiums.

I'm not so sure the Admiral Gorshkov/Vikramaditiya conversion is a good thing, but converting them to the Baku standard would, if possible, be better.
Agreed on Moskva, Ulyanovsk. Agree on Kirov, and I'd say one more unit(in addition to OTL Petr Veliky).

Slava... don't like that design much, but there are a few projects to upgrade them. Scrap Sverdlov, Kynda and Kresta I. Kresta II might still have some use, or could be sold to foreign navies. There are some very interesting upgrade projects for Kara that could be used, to keep them as the major Black Sea units.

As for an AA/GP cruiser project, search for "Project 1199 Anchar".

Skoryy, Kotlin, Kidlin, Krupny, Kanin - Scrap they are utterly obsolete.
Kashin - Upgrade to Kashin II at least.
Sovremenny/Udaloy - Continue production.
Krivak class - Begin modernisation of Krivak I and II to Krivak IV standards, retain Krivak III, look at what the hull could be developed into.
Grisha - Modernise.
Riga, Petya, Mirka, Koni - Gone

This is just off the top of my head..there's a lot to be done. The massed disarmament would calm western fears, save money and possibly lead to a more professional armed forces for the Soviet Union.

Agree on scrapping anything earlier than Kashin. Not sure I'd upgrade Kashin, would try to replace them with something like the Project 1135.6(the Indian Krivak frigates), or the Admiral Makarov standard that's currently being built for the Russian Navy. Keep building Sovremenny and Udaloy, but look for some development of Project 21956 as a common successor of those classes.

Not sure Krivak I and II can be upgraded to Krivak IV standard. Also, remember Krivak III are Border Guard(KGB) units. The Krivak IV would be the main Baltic/Black sea unit, together with Project 1166 Gepard, which would replace the older SKR/MPK/MRK.

One last note; a professional military would go against Soviet dogma, as I understand it. Even now, there is strong opposition to a professional military in the Russian Armed Forces, for many reasons.

 

[modelcitizen]

Why the soviet need a piece of aircraft that's calibrated not to be see on Soviet radar ?

They need every piece of US radar systems, they can get in there hands*.
on ...

Excellent and interesting point.

The Soviet capacity for thinking intensely and out of the box would no doubt have shown itself a number of times in the last several decades, with nigh unpredictable results in the sky and perhaps just above the water.

Related question: Wasn't the ekranoplan the ultimate Soviet stealth craft, able to sneak that much high-capacity hardware right under the American radar at impressive speed?


(Look at these big numerous pictures and shiver, http://igor113.livejournal.com/51213.html )

 

[Michel Van]

Excellent and interesting point.

Wasn't the ekranoplan the ultimate Soviet stealth craft, able to sneak that much high-capacity hardware right under the American radar at impressive speed?

YES, one of features was the flying so low that enemy radar could not see them, what make it ideal for troop transporter, patrol craft and attack craft.
sadly, the soviet minister had other ideals: "Soviet shipbuilding Buro are Not build Airplanes !"

on US stealth problem
the USAF found fast there limitation to it, the F-117 was not aerodynamic ideal to fly, the B-2 need a dry environment, because the moister could damage the stealth coating.
and European gave with Eurofighter the USAF a very humiliation, it's got Captor-M radar with two working channels and the Synthetic Aperture Radar for all-weather combat
during NATO exercises the Eurofighter could find very easy the stealth F-22 because, it stealth design not included multi channels radar with different wavelength !

so if the Europeans can build this , so why not also the soviets ?