Soviet carrier fleet 1948-1991

What happens with the Cuban revolution? Will the Soviets be more bold now that they have a larger Navy, and try and run the blockade? Will the Americans be more worried about a Soviet port 90 miles away, and decide to invade? I think the former is less likely, but the latter not so much. It will definatly go differently.
 
Didn´t the Netherlands operated British Sea Hawks in her Carrier(Colossus classs?).Also,about the F14,was not the Phoenix ahead of anything the russians had?I read in a magazine that one defecting russian pilot sad that when he knew that the US had an airplane capable of destroying an enemy one 100 miles far,he knew that it was all over for the motherland.Any way,i just thought that the Phoenix was way ahead of anything at it´s time.

The Sea Hawks were totally outdated by 1960's and according to my Wiki-deep knowledge they were kept in land bases by mid-1960's. On Phoenix, in this TL USA has already introduced AAM-N-10 Eagle for it's Douglas F6D Missileers by 1965, so there's isn't OTL Phoenix. On Phoenix missile, it was a big missile and it's effectiveness was often questioned against smaller targets. As bomber interceptor missile it was probably OK.

I'm not going to say the Soviets CAN'T do it, but it'll take them a decade or two to, for instance, get the launch-land cycle down to a time comparable to their Western counterparts.

Absolutely true, the effectiveness of a Soviet carrier force probably never reaches the USN level but they're still out there looking good.

What happens with the Cuban revolution? Will the Soviets be more bold now that they have a larger Navy, and try and run the blockade? Will the Americans be more worried about a Soviet port 90 miles away, and decide to invade? I think the former is less likely, but the latter not so much. It will definatly go differently.

I thought first exactly like that myself, but there's no true Soviet fleet carriers yet and Soviet Navy by early 1960's is still fairly close to OTL total strength (ie. no Sverdlov-class but CVL's and CLAA's instead). Thus the Soviet ability to react is still rather small. However, from late 1960's the real differences begin to show.

Thanks for all comments!
 
Part VII: Soviet Naval operations 1958-1965

While Suez crisis had proved the usefulness of Soviet carriers it also sharpened up USN responses in other crisis. During US operation "Blue Bat" Soviet carrier division in the Mediterranean was not available while in Formosa crisis Soviet fleet was satisfied showing the flag in the Yellow Sea.

One of the most succesful Soviet naval operations was deployment of two-carrier task force to Indonesian waters during crisis over Netherlands New Guinea. While this force was clearly outmatched by US 7th Fleet it was more powerful than sole RNLN carrier task force. Incidentally, this deployment led also into calls for more powerful Australian carrier forces. Despite calls from Sukarno Soviets did not sell a carrier for Indonesia as the older Sverdlov-class would be needed for ASW missions.

The Cuban Missile crisis, or more exactly, it's aftermath, was a trying moment for the Soviet Navy. On the one hand, Gorshkov's point on the need of the balanced fleet being constructed was vindicated. On the other hand the actual Soviet naval operations had not been succesful. Foxtrot-submarines sent for Cuba had all been intercepted and forced to surface by NATO ASW forces. Soviet naval forces had also been deployed according to their war plans - defending the Arctic and Eastern part of the Mediterranean - they were not deployed to try to run the US blockade.

Admiral Gorshkov and the Soviet Navy also did not suffer from Khruschev ousting as was supposed by many outside analysts. New Soviet leadership was intending to spend more, not less, on military and the usefulness of Soviet Navy in crisis had been proved beyond expectations.

This was also time of expansion for the Soviet Navy. The first Soviet "large aircraft carrying cruiser" Moskva was commissioned during the crisis, followed by construction program planned to complete rest of the class in 1965-1970 with one ship a year. The delay between first of the class and serial production units was a Soviet practice aiming to eliminate defects surfacing from operational trials.

By 1965 the experimental task force testing equipment and tactics for the new technically advanced Soviet Navy was busy conducting various operational trials. The supporting ships, however, were not ready. Project 1126 anti-aircraft cruisers and Project 1134 ASW-cruisers would not enter operational service before 1970 as their advanced systems would take more time to mature.

The carrier task force with it's logistic ships was ready for showboat duties, however, and in early 1965 the "Gorshkov's Great White Fleet" was sent into worldwide cruises with Havanna as it's first port call to be followed with a transit to the Pacific Fleet. The conflict in Vietnam was growing and Soviet Union had decided to show the flag there.

Showing the flag would also demand ground presence. Project 1171 Tapir (Alligator-class) LST's would allow first afloat deployments of Soviet marines. Soviet Navy was impressed with British and American efforts in this area and design studies for a Soviet amphibious assault ship were also started. After studies construction of one ship class was authorized. This ship was to combine duties of LPD and LPH due to the fact that only small-scale distant deployments was envisaged. This ship class could also act as a nucleus of larger amphibious task force. Project 1174 Ivan Rogov (not OTL ship) would have a displacement of around 20 000 tons and would be able to carry a reinforced Naval Infantry battalion. It was to have a full-length flight deck for helicopters. In addition to amphibious BTR, BRDM and PT-76 vehicles the craft would also operate two smaller landing crafts which in the future would be replaced by Aist-class landing hovercraft. Altogether six ships were authorized in 1964 to enter in service between 1968-1974.
 
MiG-19 would have been a good choice for carrier conversion. In theory so would the later Su-17 and MiG-23 variable geometry wing fighters, but their singles engines may not be sufficiently reliable. Of course Western single engined carrier jets were quite common at the time.

Pretty soon the Soviets will have to design specialized naval aircraft. They never had anything similar to the A-6 Intruder or Blackburn Buccaneer for example.

They had the Su-7 which could of worked in that role nicely
 
In context of this thread one might enjoy seeing two documentary about Russian Naval Aviation (see "Soviet Sea Plane" from Youtube) and Soviet carriers (see "Russian aircraft carrier") from user Chasy2007

http://www.youtube.com/user/chasy2007

Even if you don't understand Russian the footage and assorted cgi-graphics are extremely interesting. Included is also footage from Tu-91 trials. Shamefully I don't get a thing they're speaking about as I don't speak Russian.
 
Part VI: Western carrier force build-up 1950-1965
Thank you for doing requests. :D



They had the Su-7 which could of worked in that role nicely

What would make you think the Su-7 would work nicely in that role?
I'm not that familair with the Su-7 but googling around came up with this:
  • Thrust/weight: 0.71
  • Takeoff roll: 950 m (3,120 ft)
  • Landing roll: 700 m (2,300 ft)
and this:

Operationally, Su-7s were hampered by high takeoff and landing speeds dictated by the thin, highly-swept wing. The landing speed of 450 km/h (245 knots, 280 mph) combined with poor visibility from the cockpit and lack of an instrument landing system made for difficult operations, especially in poor weather.[4] In 1961-1962, Sukhoi experimented with blown flaps on S-25 but the benefit was too small to warrant implementation. JATO rockets tested on S-22-4 proved more useful and were incorporated into Su-7BKL. Attempts to improve takeoff and landing performance eventually resulted in the Sukhoi Su-17.
which kind of prevents the Su-7 or any derivative of it from having any carrier success.
Don't you perhaps mean the Su-17? AFAIK that had a somewhat shorter take-off and landing then the Su-7?
 
They had the Su-7 which could of worked in that role nicely
I didn't mention the Su-7 because it had notoriously high runway requirements for a swept wing attack jet. Su-17 halved the TO run while carrying more bombs. Its downside is it wasn't available until the early 70s.
 
Cheers

S396

There are some rather boring RL issues one has to take care of, so it's probably next weekend I'll do my next take. It's also that I'll have to think some things through as by late 1960's Soviet Fleet is large enough for some real crisis handling. The mid-to-late 1960's will provide number of situations where this can make a difference. One thing for sure is that Soviet involvement in Africa will be much more intensive with a number of effects. Beira Patrol, as it was UN sanctioned, will be probably the first operational mission for the new Soviet Fleet. There's also the PRC-USSR split in which a larger Soviet fleet can make far more threats against PRC, Six Days war and it's aftermath etc.
 
Part VIII: Soviet Naval operations 1965-1968: Expanding global role

This era might be called the prelude of the greatest Soviet - or even Russian - epoch of naval history. During the late 1960's the vessels specified during early 1960's were rapidly entering service although in practice there were much problems, especially in managing the combat situation picture. Defensive and offensive operations of a battle group with high speed of modern weapons was discovered to demand much more extensive data transmission and computational facilities than thought initially necessary. Nevertheless, it must be remembered that Western navies during the period had also similar problems.

But even with teething problems taken into account the new Soviet fleet seemed to symbolize the Soviet Union entering the world political scene as an equal of United States. While US defense efforts were tied in increasing quaqmire of Vietnam the Soviet Navy was supporting Brezhnev's new assertive foreign policy in the Middle East and Africa.

First operational mission to support foreign policy was the Soviet involvement in so-called Beira patrol to ensure that no oil would reach Rhodesia ruled by white minority. The Soviet offer was something United Kingdom was afraid of but had to accept as the blockade was part of an UN effort. Making of the offer was also matter of controversy in the Soviet leadership, as it was coldly calculated that a long conflict would perhaps be in Soviet interest. On the other hand, Soviet deployment was calculated to generate much good will in the West and would also give a good opportunity to learn from the Royal Navy, traditionally held in high esteem by the Soviet Navy.

In the end, the deployment was a complete success. Soviet Navy deployed CVN Moskva and her battlegroup initially followed by deployment of pairs of destroyers and cruisers. The potential blockade runners were stopped by combined RN-Soviet Navy effort which was larger than initially thought due to pressure to deploy a larger force of RN than Soviet Navy to keep the mission leadership in British hands. In the end, the oil embargo was not enough to stop the flow of oil to Rhodesia as there was no political will to extend the embargo to South African ports. This also played to Soviet hands as Soviet Union could display it's determination to work in an international effort but simultaneously USSR could show that Western Imperialists (TM) would not really bring up the pressure against South Africa, Portugal and Rhodesians. Soviet support for "movements of national liberation" was still rather covert in nature but this was merely preparing the ground for massive interventions of 1970's.
The Soviet naval support for North Vietnam was deliberately kept at low level. While supply of modern weapons was discussed it was decided that even deploying coastal ASM's might have deleterious effect. However, the exercises and deployments of Soviet Fleet perhaps had an influence on US naval efforts in sense that during the war North Vietnam was never truly blockaded, supply ships ran to Hanoi throughout the conflict.

The most serious US-Soviet clash at sea was the role of US 6th Fleet and Soviet Mediterranean Eskadra during the Six Days War. Before the conflict Soviets made a surge deployment to the Eastern Mediterranean which resulted an US 6th Fleet deployment in turn. Soviet Eskadra helped Egypt fairly aggressively with the most celebratory example being the relay of the information about Israeli massive air strike on Egypt by Soviet picket destroyers. Due to ineptness of Egyptian Air Force this did not much help the Egyptian Air Force, mostly resulting in more fighters being scrambled to be destroyed in dog fights.

While the war at sea was of minor consequences to the result of the war at whole it was a curious episode that Israeli forces engaged both Soviet and US navies during the conflict. US intelligence vessel USS Liberty was sunk by Israeli Air Force planes which resulted in surprisingly little tension between US and Israeli governments. Soviet picket destroyer Odarenny (Project 61 Kashin) was engaged during same day by Israeli destroyer INS Eilat (ex-British Z-class). The ship was (rightly) suspected by the Israelis of helping both the Egyptian air defenses and also the few Egyptian surface combatants. INS Eilat employed powerful EW measures against the ship at fairly close range. After being harassed for a number of hours the INS Eilat was hit by a torpedo and sunk by an Egyptian submarine. This incident, although minor by standards of any great naval war, led into "sub-craziness" years of 1970's when the small SSK was touted to be the greatest equalizer available for navies.

While Czechoslovakia was landlocked the Soviet Navy had a role to play during it's occupation. As a part of disinformation effort the Soviet Navy performed it's first truly global naval exercise, OKEAN-68, to display it's new might. While this exercise was in public, as everything in Soviet Union, a complete success, in reality the exercise revealed significant shortcomings especially in area of naval communication and command systems. However, the idea of networked strike force was determined to be practically sound. To perfect it a yet new generation of ships would be designed to be fielded in late 1970's.
 
Jukra,

Any chance of more?

Cheers

S396

Seconded.

Out of curiosity, as it seems that britain maintains a larger carrier force, does that mean that the UK acts as more of a great power, not an equal of the US but with more independance or potential independance then OTL, If so that might mean the UK keeps bases in Singapore and the Mediterrenean(sic).
 
Clever move, to use the Soviet fleet to help the Egyptians without firing a shot.

Will the Soviet fleet ever see battle in a scenario that's not WWIII?
 
Due to OTL-RL tasks this update has taken longer than previous ones... Next installments will be about amphibious capabilities, carriers, support ships and the Western counter-reaction.

Part IX: New generation of Soviet naval ships for 1980's - Escorts

During the late 1960's the plans were prepared for yet another expansion of Soviet naval capabilities. These ships and other platforms would represent large generational leap over previous capabilities and it was also realized that the design and procurement process would take a long time as entirely new technologies would have to be developed and tested. Thus in 1970 Plan the goal was that first one of the new task forces would be fielded in 1980.

For global reconnaissance the satellite systems US-P and US-A (radar and electronic intelligence) would be updated and linked with Soviet satellite communications system.

As successors of Project 671 (Victor) submarines new Project 945 (Sierra) submarines would be deployed. This would introduce titanium hulls with it's numerous benefits.

For new generation of aircraft-carrying cruisers it was determined that these would not carry anti-ship cruise missiles. The task of carrying anti-ship cruise missiles would fall upon Project 949 (Oscar) submarines and task force escorts.

As task force escorts it was determined that new type of ship would be able to perform both ASW and AAW duties effectively, if provided with suitably large size. The final design was the Project 1164 Atlant (Slava) class cruiser. Smaller concepts thought about during this time such as Project 956 (Sovremenny) and Project 1155 (Udaloy) were abandoned as the capabilities could be installed in a single hull which would be more suitable for open wates. For tasks in closed waters the Project 1135 (Krivak) class would be further developed.

Key weapon systems to be developed would be S-300F (SA-N-6) anti-air missile to be installed in Project 1164 Atlant -cruisers, P-700 Granit missiles for anti-ship strike and KH-15 missiles for airplane-based anti-ship strike.

It was calculated initially that a carrier task force would include one carrier, six Project 1164 escort ships, two Project 945 escort submarines and two Project 949 missile submarines. These would be able to launch a salvo of 100 P-700 Granit missiles with Project 949 missile submarines taking care that the strike would arrive from more than one direction. As an integrated part of theoretical strike plan the task force would be supported by a regiment of future bombers firing KH-15 missiles. A single regiment would be able to fire some 300-600 KH-15 missiles.

(Note: Last paragraph edited)
 
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This is such a fun timeline, thanks for continuing :).

As successors of Project 671 (Victor) submarines new Project 945 (Sierra) submarines would be deployed. This would introduce titanium hulls with it's numerous benefits.

As I recall the titanium hull's were a very expensive dead end for the Soviets. The amount of titanium they spent on them could have been used to make all frontline aircraft 90% made out of titanium, for instance (the MiG-25 was made of nickel steel for god's sake) and the Soviets went back to steel for the Akula's.

Perhaps the Alfas, with their high-speed/deep-diving design could justify titanium but using it for the Sierra's is a very stupid move. That said, the Soviet steel industry may not have been up to the task at that point in time—investing money there makes more sense then even building one sub out of titanium.



Also, has the USSR realized yet how bad their submarines are compared to Western designs? IOTL they didn't until Walker gave them the information, I'm wondering if that's gone differently.
 
Perhaps the Alfas, with their high-speed/deep-diving design could justify titanium but using it for the Sierra's is a very stupid move. That said, the Soviet steel industry may not have been up to the task at that point in time—investing money there makes more sense then even building one sub out of titanium.

Sure, but in early 1970's with Brezhnev in the helm military is given all the toys it wants. Thus Gorshkov wants Sierras. Historically Sierra-project was reduced in favour of building Akulas. On the other hand, although I've not written it yet, I don't think Alfas will be built as their historical role was an interceptor submarine and with carriers extending the reach of Soviet navy there's no role for them.

And naturally, at this stage these are plans, not what will eventually happen.

Also, has the USSR realized yet how bad their submarines are compared to Western designs? IOTL they didn't until Walker gave them the information, I'm wondering if that's gone differently.

Fair point. In this TL the Soviet Navy will have more experience meeting the Western navies. Walker spy ring operated for a fairly long time, from 1968 to 1985, so the information is already available to influence Soviet building program for 1980's. I think in this TL Soviets will have more focus on this issue, but it will not have much earth-shattering importance.
 
Part X: Soviet Naval Aviation for the 1980's

The building plans developed during late 1960's and finalized in 1970 also specified future directions for Soviet Naval Aviation. Soviet Naval Aviation, differing from USN's air arm, also had rather large land-based strike capabilities. In view of apparent success of cruise missile concept it was decided to continue this orientation. However, new bomber and new missiles would be developed.

The new bomber was developed through normal Soviet process, nominally through tactical-technical specifications, in reality also through significant back-channel political activity and carrots for different regions and ministries. For additional political support the same bomber would be used by ADD (Long Range Aviation), as was the previous Tu-95.

As different countries may choose surprisingly similar looking approaches the Soviet design looked surprisingly much like American AMSA, contracted to Rockwell and named B-1. Name of the plane was Tu-160. It was to carry a very great load of 24 new, semi-ballistic ASM missile, Raduga Kh-15 (AS-16 Kickback) In ADD role the main armament would be new Raduga Kh-55 (AS-15 Kent) cruise missile, twelve of which could be carried, which could be also deployed in submarines (SS-N-21 Sampson). These weapons had their Western counterparts in AGM-69 SRAM and Tomahawk/AGM-86 series.

The aircraft would have combat radius of 5000-7000 kilometers. It's introduction would represent a quantum leap in Soviet Naval Aviation capabilities and thus it became a priority project.

The second new important land based plane was already being test-flown. This was the Tu-142, ASW and reconnaissance variant of Tu-95, capable of supporting task forces well with it's 6500km combat radius.

For shipborne aviation there were requirements for multiple types of planes. Perhaps the most spectacular role was the fleet air defense fighter, for which Sukhoi was contracted it's T-10 design (Su-27). In Soviet tradition of variable air plane types lightweight fighter was to be added in to the mix with LPFI variant (MiG-29). These would replace the naval variant of MiG-23 which would enter service during early 1970's.

For strike role the decision was made to concentrate mainly on heavy type of strike aircraft. This was Su-24, which was smaller than US A-5 Vigilante already in service. Su-24 would be also used for radio-electronic combat (EW) and reconnaissance.

Finally for less glamorous roles of AEW Yakovlev would introduce Yak-44 which would be also used for ASW. In copying the USMC use of Harriers a V/STOL light aircraft, Yak-38, was also to be introduced.
 
Very interesting idea. Although my personal belief is that during the Cold War, the USN was almost ASB level of wank, and that the Soviet surface fleet really could do nothing but launch their missiles before they went valiantly to the bottom of the ocean. The Soviet subs would be doing most of the fighting.

I also don't believe that even at this level of naval focus in your timeline that the Soviets would have been at all able to hold the Med for any length of time. I even see them losing the Black Sea later on, they just wouldn't be able to stand up to the navies of US, Italy, France, Britain, Greece, and Turkey, and what ever other NATO nations had ships in the Med.

Very interesting idea though, I hope to see more!
 
As a retired Navy type love the thread...however...The key question is what does the Soviet Union NOT build to produce all these carriers and their a/c, to say nothing of the escorts etc. The USSR was resource limited, especially when it came to high end stuff like carriers, jets etc. The only way this works is that the Red Army has way less tanks, helos etc, and likewise the Sov AF is smaller.

Another problem the Sovs have is manning. Yes, the US expanded its carrier force like crazy during WW2 but the raw material they had to work with was way better educated and mechanically oriented than the average USSR 18-20 year old. Most of the Red Banner Fleet was staffed by draftees who were in for 2-3 years. Many tasks performed by senior, or even mid-grade enlisted personnel in the US Navy were performed by officers in the Red Fleet (including wrench turning).

Some carriers maybe, but not like this.
 
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