Soviet air doctrine in 1980s

Khanzeer

Banned
You are the head of Soviet airforces PVO and VVS
The year is 1980 cold war at its peak

You have The same aircraft and weapons as in the OTL for both services

But You have been given complete freedom to adopt any tactics are make any decisions at the tactical or strategic level to improve the performance of the two services

What would you do ?
 
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Anyway I always thought gci would be a prime target for western air strikes. In an era of red flag, improving western electronics, and evoluting missile tech, like newer sparrow missiles the soviet Air Force needs to be radically changed. I don’t think they ever really did or even to this day have figured how to properly oppose a western air force.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
If they keep their objectives relatively modest I think they can do better than what most people assume
 
You are the head of Soviet airforces PVO and VVS
The year is 1980 cold war at its peak

You have The same aircraft and weapons as in the OTL for both services

But You have been given complete freedom to adopt any tactics are make any decisions at the tactical or strategic level to improve the performance of the two services

What would you do ?
With the benefit of today's knowledge and 20 / 20 hindsight...

Start a secret "black program" to devise new radars, radios, data links / IFF etc that use fundamentally different modes, frequencies etc with a physical form factor, electrical interface specifications etc that allows them to be rapidly swapped with the existing equipment.

Construct massive underground test complexes so they can be more or less tested with freedom from being detected by western Elint.

Leak dis information about the massive underground complexes so the west believes they are deeply burried underground command posts, weapons storage sites, factories etc and in turn devote resources to being able to target and destroy them.

Plan to use these new electronic systems at the start of ww3 and hopefully degrade the usefulness of western ECM / ESM.
 
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Double my efforts to stop Aircrew and ground crew from drinking

OTL such was the death toll (1/3rd of pilots would die before finishing their tours) partially due to a serious culture of drinking that was so bad that the Air force leadership banned any form of alcohol on airbases

At this point they then found that they had to change the boot polish as it was alcohol based and yes you guessed it air force personnel were spreading the boot polish on bread letting the alcohol soak into the bread scrapping the residue off and then eating the bread

It was that big a problem

I would introduce breathalyzer checks before every flight and spot checks on all personnel with serious consequences for those that are found drunk on duty

Drive down drink based losses and improve overall air force effectiveness
 
I am presuming the role of the VVS is to support the Ground Forces to invade NATO countries; to act as a sort of flying combat engineers to help with mobility (removing bottlenecks) and counter-mobility (interdicting reinforcements).

I understand the core role of the PVO to be defending the airspace of the Soviet Union, and in an attack on NATO to do their best in the uphill battle to contest NATO air dominance.

For the VVS, I think I would leave runway denial and long range/area interdiction to the army’s rocket artillery as much as possible. NATO would be expected to own their airspace. Bombers might use stand off weapons to augment, hitting railroad yards and ports etc. with sub-munition dispensers.

I would train all arms of the VVS more, which would be expensive in fuel and aircraft maintenance. Particularly I would train in extreme low-level flying. For the tactical bombers, Mig-27s and Su-17s, 24s, and 25s the goal would be to give them a better chance of making it past NATO fighters to reach their targets. For the fighters, it would be so they get comfortable flying low so they can catch NATO anti-tank planes and helicopters flying nap of the earth. I would implement a program training Su-25s to hunt helicopters with their R-60 missiles and cannons.

I would also encourage Ground Forces to create special units of helicopter-hunting helicopters, using missile armed Mi-24s and possibly Ka-50s when they become first available in 1982. These units would run just ahead of armoured break-throughs to speed the tanks along clearing away the NATO anti-tank helicopters.

To the PVO I would add the role of destroying the NATO AWACs, tanker, and surveillance aircraft. The R-33 air-air missile with a range of 120km went into production in 1980. Initially I would convert Mig 25, Su-15, and Tu-28 interceptors to be able to launch the R-33. I would encourage development of longer ranged versions and improved derivatives of the missile. When the Mig-31 goes into production in 1982 it will greatly increase the effectiveness of the R-33 missile for this mission. I expect the anti-AWACS part of the air war campaign to be whack a mole. As an AWACs is shot down, another is brought forward to fill the gap, which becomes another urgent target. Some of these missions can be expected to be kamikaze, with an interceptor dashing into NATO airspace at full mach, hoping to get close enough to get a shot off before being shot down. A secondary mission for these interceptors would be shooting down NATO strategic bombers.

Another suicide-ish mission profile for both PVO and VVS fighter forces would be saturating the airspace over a critical breakout battle to try and gain local air parity or even superiority long enough for VVS tactical bombers to soften the ground for advancing Ground Forces, and to deny the airspace to NATO tactical bombers. I would expect losses to be high and probably unsustainable in these hairball dogfights, but they would be justifiable if the strategic objectives were met on the ground. VVS fighter capability will improve somewhat when the Mig-29 arrives in the early '80s. PVO likewise when they get the Su-27 in the mid-'80s.

A problem I can see is that Ground Force air defences would be expecting anything in the air to be NATO, for good reason, and would fill the skies with SAMs at any provocation. Any doctrine that put Soviet aircraft in closer proximity to Ground forces on the offensive would necessitate inter service training to step up the IFF game and reduce friendly-fire shoot downs.

That’s all I can think of. Of course, anything that made a Soviet invasion of Western Europe more likely to succeed would make it more likely, and the better they fought, the more quickly it would all go nuclear.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
^ excellent thanks
Just to nit pik mig29 is not widespread till jan 1988 ( 450 in service) and su27 not till 89 ( 260 on Jan 1 1989)
So most of 80s you have mig23 P/ML/MLD and approx 250 mig31 by 1985

Converting mig25 to use R33 is a good idea but 800 flagons cannot be converted to the foxhound type radar too expensive

But su15 isnt it more cost effective to use it as a mig23 like tactical fighter and have them fire R24 , decent missile by 80s standard ? They can be used as fillers against a lot of second rate NATO attackers
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
Didn't the Soviets have AWACS assigned as priority targets ?

Also I thought the su24, su17, mig27 were fairly decent low level attackers with latest versions with jammer pods, chaff/flares ( for the 80s)
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Also many of guys here are way more knowledgeable than me on airpower issues can you comment on how Soviets can improve the use of their ECM aircraft

That's far as I know they planned to use varients of yakalov brewer, sukhoi fitters and Tupelov Badger As the numerous types in this role, they would accompany strike packages and would send very strong electromagnetic jamming pulses that would be expected to blind all radars friends and foe.A very crude form of electronic countermeasures
 
Didn't the Soviets have AWACS assigned as priority targets ?

Also I thought the su24, su17, mig27 were fairly decent low level attackers with latest versions with jammer pods, chaff/flares ( for the 80s)

They may have already been doing some of the stuff I mentioned. The R-33 missile didn't become available until 1980, but they created it for the anti-AWACs mission, so they already had that idea. They may have had less capable equipment assigned to that mission before. Also, even if the Soviet equipment was up to the task, I recall hearing that the pilots did not get enough flying time to get good at real low level flying, like NATO practiced over Labrador. Lots of hours training is expensive in fuel and wear on the aircraft, and is more expensive in an airforce like the Soviet one where they figured quantity was the answer to NATO quality. If you have lots more pilots and planes it multiplies training costs. Also, terrain following radar hooked up to the autopilot simplifies the job of nap-of-earth flying, and Soviet avionics lagged behind the west in all things.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
^ if I remember correctly the su15tm had a low level flight auto pilot mode but was tightly tethered to GC radars

USSR was a poor country with the pretensions of a superpower so obviously they had to spread resources over a number of areas this affected all kinds of training
I personally feel they should have just relied on IRBMs to prevent a conventional NATO attack while use their conventional might to bully non-nuclear armed traditional foes like Turkey, Iran Japan Pakistan( yeah I know by 82 they had a crude bomb) etc
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
and by the mid late 80s the soviets have 200+ foxhounds , 200+ flankers and 400 fulcrums
which of these fighters is best suited to be used against the NATO's F-15 ?

fulcrum is obviously out
flanker is too new and not sophisticated enough to deal with f-15 , they are best suited to counter f-4 or f-16A ( this is before AIM-120 era)

so I would argue despite the complete lack of WVR capabilities Mig-31 is the best option available to counter the F-15
in the 80s the mig-31 missiles are longer ranged than f-15 and they can shoot 4 R33 at 4 targets , unlike other SARH equipped fighters
so that is their best bet against f-15, attempt a long range salvo and if f-15 can dodge all 4 missiles then just turn tail and run like hell
 
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and by the mid late 80s the soviets have 200+ foxhounds , 200+ flankers and 400 fulcrums
which of these fighters is best suited to be used against the NATO's F-15 ?

fulcrum is obviously out
flanker is too new and not sophisticated enough to deal with f-15 , they are best suited to counter f-4 or f-16A ( this is before AIM-120 era)

so I would argue despite the complete lack of WVR capabilities Mig-31 is the best option available to counter the F-15
in the 80s the mig-31 missiles are longer ranged than f-15 and they can shoot 4 R33 at 4 targets , unlike other SARH equipped fighters
so that is their best bet against f-15, attempt a long range salvo and if f-15 can dodge all 4 missiles then just turn tail and run like hell

Such method is not going to get air parity for the WP in an offence into Mid Europe and the WP strike aircrafts are going to get slaughtered.

The Mig 31, an interceptor that needs 'all the space in Siberia to turn', would be slaughtered during its slow turn if itself is not escorted.

Using Mig 29 and SU 27 remains the best bet esp. when the German airspace is going to get very crowded and the chance of getting into dogfighting is high. While WVM missiles improved after Vietnam War, the congested nature of the battlespace means it is likely that fighters would only get 1 WVM salvo before getting into knife range fights.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3oGGQxCxszpuM5lesFZtVh

Professional reports on OOB and combat researches like the one linkef above are widely available in thr internet age. It is recommended more research is done before fellow members putting forward mere spectations.
 
[QUOTE="Cryhavoc101]

At this point they then found that they had to change the boot polish as it was alcohol based and yes you guessed it air force personnel were spreading the boot polish on bread letting the alcohol soak into the bread scrapping the residue off and then eating the bread

It was that big a problem

[/QUOTE]

Wow it sounds too weird to be true! Whats your source I would love to learn more?
 
^ if I remember correctly the su15tm had a low level flight auto pilot mode but was tightly tethered to GC radars

USSR was a poor country with the pretensions of a superpower so obviously they had to spread resources over a number of areas this affected all kinds of training
I personally feel they should have just relied on IRBMs to prevent a conventional NATO attack while use their conventional might to bully non-nuclear armed traditional foes like Turkey, Iran Japan Pakistan( yeah I know by 82 they had a crude bomb) etc
They tried the IRBM rout. NATO freaked out and put IRBMs in Western Europe, and the Soviets freaked out.
NATO and the Warsaw pact signed a treaty that eliminated IRBMs it was an effect till recently
 
Double my efforts to stop Aircrew and ground crew from drinking

OTL such was the death toll (1/3rd of pilots would die before finishing their tours) partially due to a serious culture of drinking that was so bad that the Air force leadership banned any form of alcohol on airbases

At this point they then found that they had to change the boot polish as it was alcohol based and yes you guessed it air force personnel were spreading the boot polish on bread letting the alcohol soak into the bread scrapping the residue off and then eating the bread

It was that big a problem

I would introduce breathalyzer checks before every flight and spot checks on all personnel with serious consequences for those that are found drunk on duty

Drive down drink based losses and improve overall air force effectiveness
They used to drain the compass mounts of alcohol. I read somewhere that a squadron of attack aircraft, tasked to support the invasion of Czechoslovakia in '68, was useless because of this.
 
Wow it sounds too weird to be true! Whats your source I would love to learn more?

Don't have a source but I have heard the same thing - leave the bread on a radiator over night, scrape off what's left in the morning and all the alcohol from the polish will have soaked into the bread. I've also read that the anti-freeze and starter fluids from Soviet era aircraft were also popular.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Such method is not going to get air parity for the WP in an offence into Mid Europe and the WP strike aircrafts are going to get slaughtered.

The Mig 31, an interceptor that needs 'all the space in Siberia to turn', would be slaughtered during its slow turn if itself is not escorted.

Using Mig 29 and SU 27 remains the best bet esp. when the German airspace is going to get very crowded and the chance of getting into dogfighting is high. While WVM missiles improved after Vietnam War, the congested nature of the battlespace means it is likely that fighters would only get 1 WVM salvo before getting into knife range fights.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3oGGQxCxszpuM5lesFZtVh

Professional reports on OOB and combat researches like the one linkef above are widely available in thr internet age. It is recommended more research is done before fellow members putting forward mere spectations.
My source on numbers was military balance 1989
Does your link have an OOB I missed that part ?
 
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