Soviet advisors die in Vietnam

I'm curious what would happen if US wouldn't be afradi to hit Vietnamese sites where soviet AD advsors were present and some would actually die? US could say "Well, there is a war going on and if they didn't want to be in harm's way (saying in HARM's way but be anachronism :D ) they shouldn't be there in the first place.

Now, US and SU did everything possible to prevent their armed forces to directly engage anywhere fearing this would lead to escalation in Europe. US could then argue that it was soviets who started this, having their military directly engage US planes (not completly true but close enough for propaganda).

So, SAM/IADS sites are hit and soviet officers die as result. Effects?
 

wormyguy

Banned
Mostly extreme embarrassment for the Soviet Union. It would not reflect well on them if the open secret that Soviet military advisors were in Vietnam was confirmed.
 
I think both sides would suppress any news of dead soviet advisors. Just like they did with soviet casualties in the Korean war. Otherwise the public pressure could be too big and things could get out of control.
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Monthly Donor
Soviet advisors DID die in Viet Nam. The number is unknown, but that some died isn't. There are reliable reports that the Son Tay raid accidental resulted in the deaths of at least two Soviet (or at least "white") interrogators who were assigned quarters at the HQ facility that was hit by mistake.

The presence of the Europeans at the Son Tay HQ was well reported in accounts of the raid after the details were declassified, but have since mostly faded from view. This as much due to the fact that the presence of USSR officials near U.S. PoW camps is accpeted as a fact and any other reason.

The U.S. and Soviet "advisors" also tangled in Korea, were Soviet pilots clashed with their American opponents in MiG Alley, with losses on both sides.
 
Soviet advisors DID die in Viet Nam. The number is unknown, but that some died isn't. There are reliable reports that the Son Tay raid accidental resulted in the deaths of at least two Soviet (or at least "white") interrogators who were assigned quarters at the HQ facility that was hit by mistake.

The presence of the Europeans at the Son Tay HQ was well reported in accounts of the raid after the details were declassified, but have since mostly faded from view. This as much due to the fact that the presence of USSR officials near U.S. PoW camps is accpeted as a fact and any other reason.

The U.S. and Soviet "advisors" also tangled in Korea, were Soviet pilots clashed with their American opponents in MiG Alley, with losses on both sides.

the advisors could be Est Germans, they were often present where Soviets hung out

Soviet "advisers" also died in Angola, Zimbabwe and the Middle East.

did American forces kill them?
 
You could read this tread as US forces killing Soviet advisors wheen the US forces fight Israel whih would be a interesting challange.
 
If you want a flash point for the Cold War to go hot, you're going to have to do better than some Soviet advisers.
 
Israel to this day deneis that foreigners fought for it. The most often repeated claim is that USAF/USN pilots flew F-4s during YKW

When they say foreigners they are using the Kosher definition that means Gentiles. I know taxi drivers who were ex Royal Tank Regiment tankies who flew out from London immediately at their own expense leaving their families behind, with the families approval I might add, and drove Centurions for the IDF in the Yom Kippur war as soon as they heard how hard pressed the IDF was. They were Jewish, as many London cabbies are, just as any US "advisors" woukld have been and therefore not foreigners.
 
I'm curious what would happen if US wouldn't be afradi to hit Vietnamese sites where soviet AD advsors were present and some would actually die? US could say "Well, there is a war going on and if they didn't want to be in harm's way (saying in HARM's way but be anachronism :D ) they shouldn't be there in the first place.

Now, US and SU did everything possible to prevent their armed forces to directly engage anywhere fearing this would lead to escalation in Europe. US could then argue that it was soviets who started this, having their military directly engage US planes (not completly true but close enough for propaganda).

So, SAM/IADS sites are hit and soviet officers die as result. Effects?

Moscow gets a little red-faced, some angry rhetoric gets passed around, and then the business of the Cold War continues as usual.
 
When they say foreigners they are using the Kosher definition that means Gentiles. I know taxi drivers who were ex Royal Tank Regiment tankies who flew out from London immediately at their own expense leaving their families behind, with the families approval I might add, and drove Centurions for the IDF in the Yom Kippur war as soon as they heard how hard pressed the IDF was. They were Jewish, as many London cabbies are, just as any US "advisors" woukld have been and therefore not foreigners.

by foreigners I was led to believe to mean non-Israeli citizens. I know that Jews flew to Israel to do jobs people called up left behind but other than that Israel and everybody else denies non-Israelis fought for them (except in 1948 but that was different situation)
 
by foreigners I was led to believe to mean non-Israeli citizens. I know that Jews flew to Israel to do jobs people called up left behind but other than that Israel and everybody else denies non-Israelis fought for them (except in 1948 but that was different situation)

Does their denying it to this day necessarily mean that the claims are unfounded?
 
by foreigners I was led to believe to mean non-Israeli citizens. I know that Jews flew to Israel to do jobs people called up left behind but other than that Israel and everybody else denies non-Israelis fought for them (except in 1948 but that was different situation)

Not only cabbies but even Jewish serving soldiers and airmen from the UK who were on leave at the time went to Israel during the Yom Kippur war and fought. I don't know if they did or not but I would presume that Jews from America and many other countries did the same. The cabbies I knew just turned up with their British Army discharge book as proof of their service at Lod airport and asked where they should report to. They were driving Centurians into action within 24 hours.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The Superpowers during the Cold War had advisors in virtually every hot spot on Earth. I doubt that there was a single war between 1945 and 1991 that did not have a American, British, Chinese, French, or Soviet advisor element. Most of the time both sides did. Afghanistan to Zaire there were U.S. troops (or "contractors") and Soviet troops/Vympel (or surrogates like the Cubans) "advising" platoon size forces. 100% certainty that some of those men got popped by their opposite numbers.

For that matter, the Soviets shot down several clearly marked USAF recon aircraft over what was either international waters or so close to them that it didn't matter. That was part of the price of doing business.
 
No real effect, Sovs complain, but both superpowers go on with the business of the Cold War. That is what the JCS (and LBJ's National Security Advisor, McGeorge Bundy) felt would happen, but LBJ and MacNamara still had lingering fears from October, 1962, and were afraid that pounding on NVN too much would bring about Soviet or PRC intervention. When the first SAM sites were discovered, both Task Force 77 in the Gulf of Tonkin, and 7th Air Force wanted to strike the sites before they became operational, but one of MacNamara's Whiz Kids said no, "Putting them in is a ploy by the Russians to appease Hanoi." These are the same idiots who felt CSAR missions were a waste, feeling that they were not cost-effective. One of them made a mistake of saying that to a carrier skipper, and the CO got boiling mad, and threw him off the ship on the next C-1 COD back to Da Nang. A USN Admrial, when hearing this story, said "I doubt Mr. MacNamara and his gang have a morale setting on their computers."
 
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