Soverign in Utero: Prince Arthur impregnates Catherine of Aragon

Catherine's dueña Doña Elvira Manuel said that the marriage was not consummated, though some historians argue that Doña Elvira was never close to the girl, whom she would later betray. Yet Arthur himself, before the wedding night, had stated that he was feeling very 'lusty and amorous', and Anthony Willoughby, one of his attendants claimed that on the following morning he had called for a cup of ale, saying "for I have been this night in the midst of Spain". Later the Prince also said, "Masters, it is good pastime to have a wife." Though, Arthur may have jested merely to cover up a failure in his marital duty.[9]

Some find it difficult to believe that the fervently devout Catherine, who insisted that her marriage to Arthur had never been consummated, would lie. Others point to Catherine's difficult situation after Arthur's death and argue that she did lie.

This is a Tudor POD, that I don't think really hasn't been discussed. So what if the Prince and Princess of Wales had truly consummated their marriage on their wedding knight and Arthur managed to impregnate Catherine? Arthur still succumbs to TB or the sweating sickness in April of 1502 while Catherine shows signs of being along in her pregnancy Let's assume for kicks, that she produces a healthy baby boy(whom she aptly names Arthur) in August of 1502. What comes of the Dowager princess now? Will the young Arthur be crowned as Prince of Wales? Would Catherine attempt to exert more influence in court? Who reigns as Regent in the wake of Henry VII's death in 1509 as our favorite Duke of York may be to young to provide a strong regency for the young prince till he reaches maturity in 1520? What are some other potential effects?
 
I'd imagine Catherine taking the regency - and given how effective she was in OTL while Henry VIII was in France, it would be pretty well for England.
 
I'd imagine Catherine taking the regency - and given how effective she was in OTL while Henry VIII was in France, it would be pretty well for England.


What about the future of Catholicism in England as the majority faith, which is what I think this thread is aiming at?
 
What about the future of Catholicism in England as the majority faith, which is what I think this thread is aiming at?

With Catherine holding more influence and legitimacy at court I imagine she can keep England in the Catholic camp as long as she lives. After that it gets murkier - if her influence remains pervasive England might not break from Rome.
 
I would assume the young Prince Arthur would be indicated by Henry VII as his heir, but a formal crowning as Prince of Wales would probably wait for a few years, I'd say 1507 at the earliest (age 5 seems a pretty good indication that the child's healthy, combine that with Henry VII getting on a bit).

Catherine would probably be regent, but if Wolsey comes to court as he did OTL he may prove to be an astute aid to the young King.
 
I would be more worried about younger Henry being perceived as a threat? Was he still being considered for the church at this time. I would still think that even with the death of Arthur that Henry VII would make Henry some noble title as he did in OTL. the whole, 'heir and a spare' rule would still apply.
 
I would be more worried about younger Henry being perceived as a threat? Was he still being considered for the church at this time. I would still think that even with the death of Arthur that Henry VII would make Henry some noble title as he did in OTL. the whole, 'heir and a spare' rule would still apply.

He'd still be Duke of York TTL I reckon.
 
I would be more worried about younger Henry being perceived as a threat? Was he still being considered for the church at this time. I would still think that even with the death of Arthur that Henry VII would make Henry some noble title as he did in OTL. the whole, 'heir and a spare' rule would still apply.

Henry VIII as a young man was a cultured and civilised man who held himself to a very high moral standard compared to many of his European contemporaries, his only acknowledged bastard the Duke of Richmond wasn't born until 1519. He was no Richard III, he would have respected the succession and would have been his nephew's most loyal servant. Even after Henry's attitudes became more extreme in the late 1520s and early 1530s, he was still deeply opposed to some proposals made by his ministers that he declare his bastard the Duke of Richmond his heir, that was not legitimate in Henry's eyes.

It is still possible that the plans for Henry to enter into the Church would have been delayed or abandoned with Arthur's death. I don't think Henry would have himself embraced being a Church man and I think with his father's death in 1509, he would have taken over the regency for his young nephew and been the power behind the throne.

Had Arthur, Prince of Wales died and Catherine is pregnant and produces a male child after his death, the child is the undisputed heir to the throne after his grandfather King Henry VII.

Catherine's pregnancy and the birth of a healty male child has huge significances for Catherine. She is no longer the widowed childless spouse of the former heir, now she is the mother of the future monarch. She will be the second most important woman at court after the Queen, Elizabeth of York.

I suspect Catherine will embrace motherhood as she did with her own daughter Mary Tudor, and she will likely not spend too much time at Court but will spend her time mostly in the country with her son (to ensure his health) in palatial luxury. She will be happy and content, I suspect she will not fall into the trap of many widowed royal ladies and will avoid romance, she was too high born and principled.

Catherine may venture more into politics as suits her and of course her child will be raised to be a good Catholic and to have a particular alligance towards the Empire of Charles V, Catherine's nephew.

It occurs to me that Catherine being delivered of a healthy male child has consequences for the wider Tudor dynasty.

It is written that in the immediate aftermath of Arthur's death, his mother Elizabeth of York tried to comfort her husband by pointing out that they still had a living strapping son and two healthy daughters and were both young enough to have more (a quote attributed to Elizabeth which I have always thought dubious but for these purposes we will run with it). Elizabeth proceeded to fall pregnant after the death of her first child and duly died shortly after giving birth to a female child who also died in 1503.

Elizabeth's death is traditionally identified as being disastouros for Catherine of Aragon as Elizabeth was seen as a sweet and caring woman
and would not have tolerated her husband treating Catherine the way that he did.

It is entirely possible that if Elizabeth became a grandmother to a future King of England in the Summer or early Autumn of 1502, there is a possibility that she may not have herself become pregnant (her last pregnacy had been more than 4 years previous), thus preventing her premature death. Elizabeth was 37 at the time of her death, not old by modern standards but by 16th century standards it was risky to have a child at any age, let alone when nearing 40.

I suspect that Mary Tudor the elder will end up marrying Charles V rather than the elderly Louis XII. It creates the possibility of much stronger ties between the English monarchy and continental Europe.
 
I would assume the young Prince Arthur would be indicated by Henry VII as his heir, but a formal crowning as Prince of Wales would probably wait for a few years, I'd say 1507 at the earliest (age 5 seems a pretty good indication that the child's healthy, combine that with Henry VII getting on a bit).

Catherine would probably be regent, but if Wolsey comes to court as he did OTL he may prove to be an astute aid to the young King.

The infant prince would be Henry VII's heir presumptive. He might be created Duke of Cornwall around age 2 or 3, but would not be created Prince of Wales, as that title is granted only to the monarch's next in line son (not to a next in line grandson).

It would be interesting to see how Catherince, Princess of Wales & Henry, Duke of York interact and vie for influence over young Prince (who might me created Duke of Cornwall around age 2 or 3) and then King Arthur.
 
The infant prince would be Henry VII's heir presumptive. He might be created Duke of Cornwall around age 2 or 3, but would not be created Prince of Wales, as that title is granted only to the monarch's next in line son (not to a next in line grandson).

It would be interesting to see how Catherince, Princess of Wales & Henry, Duke of York interact and vie for influence over young Prince (who might me created Duke of Cornwall around age 2 or 3) and then King Arthur.

Any child of Arthur and Catherine of Aragon would be Henry VII's apparent. There was no one who could displace the child of Arthur and Catherine in the succession. He would inherit his father's position. Therefore he would be heir apparent, not heir presumptive. Henry VIII was his father's heir presumptive until such time as it was confirmed that Catherine of Aragon was not carrying Arthur's child, at that point he became heir apparent, nobody could displace him.

To use a modern example, Prince William is heir apparent to the Prince of Wales, who is heir apparent to Queen Elizabeth II, no one can displace them in the line of succession.

However Queen Elizabeth II was never heir apparent to her father, it is not possible for a woman to be heir apparent to a their parent who is a reigning monarch under the British approach to succession to the throne.

George III was created Prince of Wales during his grandfather's reign.

I don't see that Catherine and Henry, Duke of York would have been in too much conflict, Henry was fond of Catherine, he married her out of affection and loyalty towards her. The Tudors were a close knit family, Henry was very fond of his mother and sisters, Henry would have likely continued to have a warm relationship with Catherine and would have been the leading male influence on his nephew, Catherine would appreciate the importance of having a strong male figure to look after things during her son's minority, she would know the risks he might face when the Wars of the Roses were less than a 50 years before.

I suspect Catherine would have pushed for Henry to marry someone from Spain or Portugal. My guess would be one of her nieces, the Infantas Isabella or Beatrice of Portugal or Eleanor or Isabella of Austria. That would keep the bond strong, my guess is that any daughter of Henry would be the favourite to marry Catherine's son.
 
Wow, thanks for all the replies guys, I does seem to me in the event of Catherine birthing a healthy baby boy that her Court rank would raise considerably, Although from what we know of Elizabeth of York, she doesn't seem like the type that would struggle for influence with the Dowager Princess, the Kings mother, Lady Margaret Beaufort might be a good role mode for th young Catherine as their situations are so simmilar. As for the duke of york's role, I agree with Alex and WRH that he might still be treated as heir apparent especially with the Tudor's history with children not survivng history. But if the child survives and thrives under the tutelage of his mother, Henry may be more used in military conflicts, which could make him a dam good general or Lord Protector down the line. Who might our King Arthur marry, if he follows his mother's pro spanish policy?
 
Wow, thanks for all the replies guys, I does seem to me in the event of Catherine birthing a healthy baby boy that her Court rank would raise considerably, Although from what we know of Elizabeth of York, she doesn't seem like the type that would struggle for influence with the Dowager Princess, the Kings mother, Lady Margaret Beaufort might be a good role mode for th young Catherine as their situations are so simmilar. As for the duke of york's role, I agree with Alex and WRH that he might still be treated as heir apparent especially with the Tudor's history with children not survivng history. But if the child survives and thrives under the tutelage of his mother, Henry may be more used in military conflicts, which could make him a dam good general or Lord Protector down the line. Who might our King Arthur marry, if he follows his mother's pro spanish policy?

I think you make a real good point about Catherine taking a role similar in her son’s reign to that of Lady Margaret Beaufort. I just don’t see Catherine being the flighty type, no romance on the cards for her. Her sole focus will be on her son and securing his throne. She will be a positive influence, promoting culture and education and acting as her son’s #1 defender and supporter.

Regarding who Catherine’s son will marry, I think it obviously depends on whether Henry, Duke of York has a daughter himself sometime between 1509 and 1520.

Catherine’s son will be born in 1502, he will likely be encouraged to make a relatively early marriage, say 1527/28 at the absolute latest, and therefore if Henry has a daughter say by 1514 then she has to be the #1 candidate to marry the son of Arthur and Catherine.

If he doesn’t, then I suspect one of the younger daughters of Catherine’s sisters Maria, Queen of Portugal or Juana, Queen of Castille will be the preference, in fact both of Catherine's sisters each daughters of suitable marriagble age both for Henry, Duke of York and the son of Arthur and Catherine. Either way Catherine is going to push her son (and possibly her brother-in-law also) towards marrying women from her own family. The ties between the English and the Spanish monarchy are going to be increase.
 
There was some talk that Henry might have become a Priest and indeed Cardinal or Pope.

How would that have been?

I just don’t see it happening. Henry, Duke of York would be the leading candidate to act as regent for his young nephew. He would also face pressure to ensure the survival of the Tudor dynasty by marrying and having children of his own while his nephew was in his minority.

Had the young King died, Henry would have been his nephew’s heir.

I think Henry would have wanted to ally himself with his widowed sister in law Catherine of Aragon by marrying someone who she favoured and in turn, had Henry had a daughter, she would have been the #1 candidate to marry the young King, thus joining to the two male lines of Henry VII together to produce a new generation of Tudor kings.
 
Something that will need considering is that a Papal dispensation will be required for Arthur to marry a daughter of Henry, which may or may not be possible if the French are doing better in Italy.
 
Something that will need considering is that a Papal dispensation will be required for Arthur to marry a daughter of Henry, which may or may not be possible if the French are doing better in Italy.

At that age, when was the last time the Pope refused a dispensation for a royal noble to marry a cousin? I just can't remember any case around 1500.
 
Something that will need considering is that a Papal dispensation will be required for Arthur to marry a daughter of Henry, which may or may not be possible if the French are doing better in Italy.

Why, it seemed entirely possible in the mid 1520s when it was suggested that Henry and Catherine's daughter Mary might marry the Emperor Charles V.

It was Catherine of Aragon's greatest wish to see her daughter marry her nephew and become Queen of Spain and for a time it seems Henry VIII was also quite attached to the plan.

In the alternate reality, I don't see why it would be a major issue for the French, if the King of England decided to marry his first cousin an English princess for family reasons as it would not have much consequences on the European stage, surely it was preferable for him to marry within his own English family rather than marry some European non French princess.
 
At that age, when was the last time the Pope refused a dispensation for a royal noble to marry a cousin? I just can't remember any case around 1500.

I do have to admit that It took me a minute to figure out it if the Duke of York's daughter could marry her first cousin in Arthur II. And since Katherine labored hard to keep the bethrothal between her nephew, the Emperor Charles V and her daughter Princess Mary Tudor intact, and no mentions of a papal dispensation being required I assume theyd be fair game.

Now, there was talk of a marriage betwen Mary and her half-brother...The Duke of Richmond, Henry FitzrRoy inorder to legitimize, Richmond as Henry heir. A papal dispensation would be required for that, plus it being ickier beyond words. I dont even want to think about what kind of child it could produce, maybe something along the lines of Charles II at it's worst, or maybe a Don Carlos at its best lol...
 
Why, it seemed entirely possible in the mid 1520s when it was suggested that Henry and Catherine's daughter Mary might marry the Emperor Charles V.

It was Catherine of Aragon's greatest wish to see her daughter marry her nephew and become Queen of Spain and for a time it seems Henry VIII was also quite attached to the plan.

In the alternate reality, I don't see why it would be a major issue for the French, if the King of England decided to marry his first cousin an English princess for family reasons as it would not have much consequences on the European stage, surely it was preferable for him to marry within his own English family rather than marry some European non French princess.

Although I think Henry, would be a good enough stock to inherit sometype of principality on the continent, without his father or grandfather aroud(post 1509) the young Arthur is going to need that uber-masculine royal figure to aspire to as he reaches maturity. Who would want to have Henry, The Duke of York as the uncle with all his exploits(which I think without added pressure of being the sole heir ITTL, he might marry alot later, and get his adolescene and twenties to kind of sow his royal oats lol)

I would consider writing a TL about this POD, because I do think its fascinating, I think my last two attempts at a Tudor TL have shown me that I am still not comfortable enough in my knowledge of the period to do one successfully. But Welsh, you seem to have this well though analysis about how things might go with Catherine's son Arthur, and Id love to see you write a full fledged TL about it(or I will:eek:) lol
 
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