Southern states say “no thanks” to American revolution

[Lusitania]

Here's an idea:

1) The Albany Plan of Union goes through, resulting in the unification of Maryland, Pennsylvania (including Delaware), New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire.
2) In the peace at the end of the 7-Year's War, Britain demands that Guadeloupe remain British. France thus retains Canada, although the border is set at the Great lakes and Ohio River and Britain gets OTL New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton Island, and Newfoundland island. The Southern colonies are happy, as they get their boundary claims extended to the Mississippi. The northern colonies may have gotten a bit of a buffer, but on the whole they feel cheated.

Backed by the French, the northern colonies later declare independence.

The French never accept New France and loose Carribean. That not in cards. The $$$ was in Carribean.

 

[Jackson Lennock]

The French never accept New France and loose Carribean. That not in cards. The $$$ was in Carribean.

The French don't have a say.

 

[Lusitania]

The French don't have a say.

Yes they did they chose Carribean and Grand Banks over New France. It was not take it or leave it negotiations.

 

[Jackson Lennock]

Yes they did they chose Carribean and Grand Banks over New France. It was not take it or leave it negotiations.

My point is, here they do not have a say.

 

[Lusitania]

My point is, here they do not have a say.

Sorry but that was not how negotiations worked in the 18th century. There have been several threads about this and as discussed in those threads. Peace negotiations did not work like that. These are negotiations not ultimatums and the French will advise what they are willing to accept.

 

[Socrates]

Considering Virginia reacted to independence by immediately banning the importation of slaves, it seems somewhat unlikely that Virginia had such sentiments (if we are considering them as part of "the South") or that "the South" would have made common cause with a rebellion where even their neighboring states had such obviously opposite sympathies (if we are not).

Virginia banned the importation of slaves because tobacco farming had ruined its soil. There was a large number of rich and important Virginians that had a lot of slaves and not enough fertile land to work them on. They wanted to sell and removing new imports from the market propped up the price.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Backed by the French, the northern colonies later declare independence.

If anything, this would make rebellion less likely -- IOTL one of the reasons the colonials got so bolshie was that they no longer needed Britain to protect them from the French, so if they're directly bordering French territory they'd probably just shut up and pay their taxes.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Sorry but that was not how negotiations worked in the 18th century. There have been several threads about this and as discussed in those threads. Peace negotiations did not work like that. These are negotiations not ultimatums and the French will advise what they are willing to accept.

Well, the British were occupying both Guadeloupe and Canada by the end of the war, so if they refuse to hand back the Caribbean island, there's not really much that France can do about it.

 

[Lusitania]

Well, the British were occupying both Guadeloupe and Canada by the end of the war, so if they refuse to hand back the Caribbean island, there's not really much that France can do about it.

Yes they were but the British wanted to end the war themselves for itvwas costing them a fortune you see. So they sat down with the French and negotiated a peace treaty. In the peace treaty there was talk of returning New France but France said no. They wanted two money making colonies and the Grand Banks. In addition the British own sugar producing interests lobbied against keeping the French colonies.

So here we have the British who had the French in a pickle trying to make it seem they had all cards but in reality they were as anxious to end the war for it had disrupted normal commerce, increased British government debt and was facing internal pressures to negotiate a peace treaty.

So it offered the French a choice of Carribean or all of New France. Here they were offering the French two small islands vs New France. What you think France said, screw New France we want the Carribean islands back. Why because of the sugar. It was such an important and profitable commodity that the rest of North America was worthless without it.

The British did the same during the ARW, they assigned lots of BN ships to protect its Carribean colonies and sacrificed the 13 colonies. Then when Napoleon ruled France when they lost Haiti and its sugar plantation he just sold French Louisiana to the US because it was worthless without Haiti.

So you see there was no way the french were about to trade profitable rich sugar colonies for some frozen piece of rock. Oh even the rich fishing Grand Banks were more profitable than New France.

France needed the rich colonies to help it rebuild its finances, why get New France and loose the profitable sugar colonies. How was France to finance new Frances expenses of troops and administration without the othe two profitable colonial endeavors? It could not so the clever British let the french chose which if its colonies it wanted to keep and then the satisfied french agreed to sign the peace treaty. If the British been asshole and said take or leave it. The French be forced to say no and continue fighting for they had nothing to lose.

 

[funnyhat]

Well, the British were occupying both Guadeloupe and Canada by the end of the war, so if they refuse to hand back the Caribbean island, there's not really much that France can do about it.

But then France keeps Menorca, which the British really wanted back. Or is there a POD changing that?

 

[Fabius Maximus]

But then France keeps Menorca, which the British really wanted back. Or is there a POD changing that?

The obvious POD would be that Britain manages to recapture Menorca before the end of the war.

 

[Lusitania]

The obvious POD would be that Britain manages to recapture Menorca before the end of the war.

Again we come back to the same argument. There was only so many resources each country has. Yes can can wave a magic wand and make anything happen but in real world the British only had so many troops, money and ships. Plus shit happens. So the British did not have a magic army or fleet tucked away to use. The French put a huge amount of resources to capture Menorca. If the British do recapture Menorca maybe they don’t capture New France. It’s capture was based on a single battle, or a weaker British presence in new world results in France recapturing the french Carribean. So the issue continues to be the insistence that Britain could do everything and demand anything it wanted. But in reality that is not how life works. The British had reason to want New France to protect its 13 colonies from continued french and its native allies attacks. It had no need for additional sugar plantations plus internal pressure to end war and return french Carribean islands meant it got the better of the deal.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Again we come back to the same argument. There was only so many resources each country has. Yes can can wave a magic wand and make anything happen but in real world the British only had so many troops, money and ships. Plus shit happens. So the British did not have a magic army or fleet tucked away to use. The French put a huge amount of resources to capture Menorca. If the British do recapture Menorca maybe they don’t capture New France. It’s capture was based on a single battle, or a weaker British presence in new world results in France recapturing the french Carribean. So the issue continues to be the insistence that Britain could do everything and demand anything it wanted. But in reality that is not how life works.

Well, this is alternate history, and there's nothing wrong with positing that a certain country does slightly better in a war than it did historically.

The British had reason to want New France to protect its 13 colonies from continued french and its native allies attacks. It had no need for additional sugar plantations plus internal pressure to end war and return french Carribean islands meant it got the better of the deal.

Perhaps the Brits realise that, with the threat from Quebec gone, the colonials will get restless. Accordingly, instead of offering France a choice between Quebec and Guadeloupe, they just offer back Quebec as a "take it or leave it" kind of thing, and the French agree to take it back.

 

[Lusitania]

Well, this is alternate history, and there's nothing wrong with positing that a certain country does slightly better in a war than it did historically.



Perhaps the Brits realise that, with the threat from Quebec gone, the colonials will get restless. Accordingly, instead of offering France a choice between Quebec and Guadeloupe, they just offer back Quebec as a "take it or leave it" kind of thing, and the French agree to take it back.

Again even in alternate history you cannot just add forces out of thin air. Unless this ASB then move the thread to that section. We discussing real possible alternatives not make belief.

Secondly negotiations were not done as take of leave it during this time. A country had to look at implications of peace and how much power it held. The French were not going to accept New France period. Let’s edtsblish that it was a money loosing colony that the French had not invested anything in. The $$$! Was in the Carribean. It like someone saying to you when you on the ground beaten up. You can have the rust bucket that does not work and you not have $ to fix it and I take your Cadillac. Plus by the way you have to fmhive me my boat back. That’s not negotiating that’s extortion and that was not how treaties were done. Maybe that is some people idea if treaty today but not when people had class.

So France says screw you we going to continue fighting. What Britain going to do invade France? No remember it needs peace too.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Again even in alternate history you cannot just add forces out of thin air. Unless this ASB then move the thread to that section. We discussing real possible alternatives not make belief.

If you think that "One of the world's foremost naval and military powers manages to occupy an island in a war" is too extreme a POD, I really don't know what to say.

Secondly negotiations were not done as take of leave it during this time. A country had to look at implications of peace and how much power it held. The French were not going to accept New France period. Let’s edtsblish that it was a money loosing colony that the French had not invested anything in. The $$$! Was in the Carribean. It like someone saying to you when you on the ground beaten up. You can have the rust bucket that does not work and you not have $ to fix it and I take your Cadillac. Plus by the way you have to fmhive me my boat back. That’s not negotiating that’s extortion and that was not how treaties were done. Maybe that is some people idea if treaty today but not when people had class.

Even if they didn't want it as much as Guadeloupe, the French obviously did care about keeping Quebec, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered fighting for it in the first place.

So France says screw you we going to continue fighting. What Britain going to do invade France? No remember it needs peace too.

Britain is in a better position to continue fighting if it comes to it. Firstly, they already occupy both Guadeloupe and Quebec and just have to keep hold of them, whereas the French need to actually take them back if they want to force Britain to hand them over. Secondly, France had been doing worse in the war and was less financially able to support its continuation than Britain was, which is why France was handing over colonies to Britain and not the other way round.

 

[Lusitania]

If you think that "One of the world's foremost naval and military powers manages to occupy an island in a war" is too extreme a POD, I really don't know what to say.



Even if they didn't want it as much as Guadeloupe, the French obviously did care about keeping Quebec, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered fighting for it in the first place.



Britain is in a better position to continue fighting if it comes to it. Firstly, they already occupy both Guadeloupe and Quebec and just have to keep hold of them, whereas the French need to actually take them back if they want to force Britain to hand them over. Secondly, France had been doing worse in the war and was less financially able to support its continuation than Britain was, which is why France was handing over colonies to Britain and not the other way round.

We are taking about Britain having to send a 3rd exoedition to attempt to attack the island. At same time France has no ability to send reinforcements whennthe island can be reached by french ships during night that can avoid British naval ships in area. No France and Spain can’t do that. The British had lost first battle when the island was captured and then lost a secound battle now they somehow have forces for 3rd but other countries don’t have ability to reinforce it.

The French forces there that had been stationedbin new France did fight but the french did not send additional forces to try recapture it.

What we are talking about is France concentrate on holding Minorca and then during negotiations it can trade it for the colonies it wants not the scraps that Britain offers. Britain never offered scraps it offered real negotiations which was how ALL treaties were done not ultimatums

 

[Fabius Maximus]

We are taking about Britain having to send a 3rd exoedition to attempt to attack the island. At same time France has no ability to send reinforcements whennthe island can be reached by french ships during night that can avoid British naval ships in area. No France and Spain can’t do that. The British had lost first battle when the island was captured and then lost a secound battle now they somehow have forces for 3rd but other countries don’t have ability to reinforce it.

Then maybe the POD can be that the British win the first or second battle.

The French forces there that had been stationedbin new France did fight but the french did not send additional forces to try recapture it.

If the French really didn't want it, they wouldn't have stationed troops there in the first place.

What we are talking about is France concentrate on holding Minorca and then during negotiations it can trade it for the colonies it wants not the scraps that Britain offers. Britain never offered scraps it offered real negotiations which was how ALL treaties were done not ultimatums

Actually, people of the time had no compunction about screwing over other countries when they could get away with it -- just look at the partitions of Poland, for example, or at Louis XV, who became hugely unpopular in France for not keeping the Austrian Netherlands after they were overrun by his armies. If Britain is occupying Quebec, Guadeloupe and Minorca, the French have no real leverage to force the return of any of them, and Britain's unlikely to give them back out of some idea that gentlemen don't take away other gentlemen's colonies.

 

[Lusitania]

Then maybe the POD can be that the British win the first or second battle.



If the French really didn't want it, they wouldn't have stationed troops there in the first place.



Actually, people of the time had no compunction about screwing over other countries when they could get away with it -- just look at the partitions of Poland, for example, or at Louis XV, who became hugely unpopular in France for not keeping the Austrian Netherlands after they were overrun by his armies. If Britain is occupying Quebec, Guadeloupe and Minorca, the French have no real leverage to force the return of any of them, and Britain's unlikely to give them back out of some idea that gentlemen don't take away other gentlemen's colonies.

I see that you do have your mind made up and are not open to any other ideas other than your own so I will not try to provide reason and information since you do nit accept any.

With that type of reasoning the British would land one soldier in Britany and conquer it.