Southern Song Survives the Mongols?

I do wonder if it was possible for the Song to outlast the Mongols. The root of the First Mongol-Song War seems to be that the Song attempted to seize several of their old cities from the Mongols without realizing that said cities had lost their importance and value. Further peace delegations from the Mongols were initially held up and executed by a local governor.

During the full swing of events the Mongols had a extremely hard time fighting the Song who used geography and unparalleled military technology to beat back the Mongols. Importantly at this time period the state of the Empire was in flux due to the death of Great Khan Mongke and rivalry amongst the factions. The Song may have been able to play factions against one another.

Further it is possible the Mongols could have taken the same policy of the Liao and Jin dynasties and exacted a much more fruitful tribute from the Song.
 
Didn't Yue Fei kick ass until Qin Hui betrayed him?
That was against the Jurchen Jin, not the Mongols.

And to be fair, the Southern Song had lost every single one of its previous battles against the Jurchen Jin, so I can see why a Song leader would want troops recalled before they are lost.
 
Maybe if they pull a 'Taiwan' in the very least, like pushed to modern Taiwan island, or.. Henan, that other island... After the disasters in Japan, maybe the Yuan forces would let them alone...

Or in a dark way, pushed to modern north Vietnam maybe, out of reach. And atop the natives.
 
I do wonder if it was possible for the Song to outlast the Mongols. The root of the First Mongol-Song War seems to be that the Song attempted to seize several of their old cities from the Mongols without realizing that said cities had lost their importance and value. Further peace delegations from the Mongols were initially held up and executed by a local governor.

During the full swing of events the Mongols had a extremely hard time fighting the Song who used geography and unparalleled military technology to beat back the Mongols. Importantly at this time period the state of the Empire was in flux due to the death of Great Khan Mongke and rivalry amongst the factions. The Song may have been able to play factions against one another.

Further it is possible the Mongols could have taken the same policy of the Liao and Jin dynasties and exacted a much more fruitful tribute from the Song.

IMO, only possible scenario would be to make Ariq Boke and Kublai had stalemate. Then make Ariq Boke ally with Song, so Kublai being very busy dealing with home affair rather than expanding further South. After Kublai there will have no capable leader who will complete Song conquest.
 
Lets see. Also, during this period the volume of trade to the Song was low and they did have a few peasent revolts. I am not sure of the cause of these. It may push the Song to expand overseas.
 
Vietnam would be hard, even Kublai couldn't complete conquest.
I rather think they would be more maritime power. So we could see conquest of Taiwan, Luzon and more Islands.
 
Vietnam would be hard, even Kublai couldn't complete conquest.
I rather think they would be more maritime power. So we could see conquest of Taiwan, Luzon and more Islands.
I think a conquest of Vietnam would be likely because it would likely ally with Champa against Daiviet and aside from that they are not distracted from conquering Annam not like what happened to Ming which was not able to retain Annam due to distractions and the base of the Southern Song is no different from Annam and also earlier, China was able to retain Annam for hundreds of years.
 
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I don't think because of danger of Mongols lurking to invade Southern Song, they won't launch large military expedition to Vietnam.
 
I don't think because of danger of Mongols lurking to invade Southern Song, they won't launch large military expedition to Vietnam.
I don't think the Song Dynasty could survive without it having peace and vassalage with the Mongols first because there is no land barrier.

I think the Southern Song needs to be a Mongol Vassal to survive just like what happened to the other states that had just been vassalized by the Mongols like Korea, So I think as a Mongol Vassal Song could conquer Vietnam.
 
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Of course I not ruling possibility but hardly plausible.
If Vietnamese could repel Mongolian invasion then they can do it against Southern Song even better.
 
Of course I not ruling possibility but hardly plausible.
If Vietnamese could repel Mongolian invasion then they can do it against Southern Song even better.
The Mongol invasion failed because of a different environment where the conquerors came from, the Southern Song were from a tropical area and have skills in fighting in the tropical regions just like the Vietnamese so Southern Song has an edge to the Mongols in conquering the Vietnamese, as I remember the Ming Dynasty was able to annex Vietnam for a time because the Chinese that fought the Vietnamese were from the Tropical Regions, I think if Song Dynasty is centered on the Guangdong Area, I think they might hold Vietnam for a longer time and it might be considered Vietnamese in a way just like the Nanyue Kingdom(Zhao/Trieu Dynasty).
 
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The Mongol invasion failed because of a different environment where the conquerors came from, the Southern Song were from a tropical area and have skills in fighting in the tropical regions just like the Vietnamese so Southern Song has an edge to the Mongols in conquering the Vietnamese, as I remember the Ming Dynasty was able to annex Vietnam for a time because the Chinese that fought the Vietnamese were from the Tropical Regions, I think if Song Dynasty is centered on the Guangdong Area, I think they might hold Vietnam for a longer time and it might be considered Vietnamese in a way just like the Nanyue Kingdom(Zhao/Trieu Dynasty).
This doesn't seem like it would work: Northern Song invaded Vietnam, and it lost. The Mongol troops that invaded Vietnam were also supported by large numbers of Chinese troops, and they didn't have any more success. A Southern Song invasion of China might have more success than the Ming invasion, since in the 1200s Vietnam has only had three centuries of independence as opposed to five by the Ming. But it presents the same problems for Southern Song as it does the Mongols.
 
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