Snake Featherston
Banned
South Vietnam's problems can't be solved by more fighters. You need an entire alternation in the nature and purpose of ARVN leadership and its function.
South Vietnamese military ideas
- Thread starter La Rouge Beret
- Start date
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Hmmm there will be an air threat, that will require a detachment of fighters. When the VNAF receives their first jet fighters in the early - mid 1960's I've narrowed it down to two candidates the Avon Sabre or the Hawker Hunter. Both can be used in the air superiority or ground support role, good maintenance requirements and easy to fly. Another advantage with both air frames is that there are other users within the same region, so that training / maintenance can be pooled to a limited degree.
Now the area that I need assistance with is the make up of the Army. Personally I was thinking along the lines of the British regimental system, but units would traditionally recruit from certain areas, but would be based elsewhere within South Vietnam.
My aim would be to emphasise / improve junior leadership, but how I go about doing that is difficult. For officer training 6 month or 12 month OCS or a 4 year degree institution. Conscription for two years and may opt to become permanent after initial minimum period of service. Focus would be on providing accommodation / support for the family - ideas there would be good. The conscript is then liabile for 45 days military service per year until 40 years of age. This trained pool would allow leave requirements to be met.
Weapons at this stage would be the M 1 Garand and suggestions for LSW, 81 mm mortar, will need assistance with other items. Considering SLR or G 3 for a replacement rife. Ideas should be confined to WW II surplus or easy to obtain weapons that are functional for recruits with low literacy rates. For the paratroopers and national police the initial weapon will be the Sten gun and after that happy for suggestions.
Happy to receive ideas on weapons / tactics / training.
Now the area that I need assistance with is the make up of the Army. Personally I was thinking along the lines of the British regimental system, but units would traditionally recruit from certain areas, but would be based elsewhere within South Vietnam.
My aim would be to emphasise / improve junior leadership, but how I go about doing that is difficult. For officer training 6 month or 12 month OCS or a 4 year degree institution. Conscription for two years and may opt to become permanent after initial minimum period of service. Focus would be on providing accommodation / support for the family - ideas there would be good. The conscript is then liabile for 45 days military service per year until 40 years of age. This trained pool would allow leave requirements to be met.
Weapons at this stage would be the M 1 Garand and suggestions for LSW, 81 mm mortar, will need assistance with other items. Considering SLR or G 3 for a replacement rife. Ideas should be confined to WW II surplus or easy to obtain weapons that are functional for recruits with low literacy rates. For the paratroopers and national police the initial weapon will be the Sten gun and after that happy for suggestions.
Happy to receive ideas on weapons / tactics / training.
In regards to your requirement for a light squad weapon, how about the MG42? Chamber it in 7.62x51mm NATO like the one in Mac's Invasion of Kenya, and you've got one hell of a weapons system.
In regards to your requirement for a light squad weapon, how about the MG42? Chamber it in 7.62x51mm NATO like the one in Mac's Invasion of Kenya, and you've got one hell of a weapons system.
Such a weapon does exist IOTL. If the budget would support it, I'm sure that they can find someone to buy or license it from TTL.
I cannot help but think about South Vietnam trying their own version of the K5 Plan.
True, but that's not really the point of this thread as I understand it, as the OP was asking for some help with aspects of foreign military assistance & equipment for his own South Vietnam TL (different leadership included) so the main thread won't get cluttered & sidetracked by things like a hardware discussion.
Pangur
Donor
First idea I would suggest is to mimic the VC/NVA. Go with conscription as you have outlined and rather than have the normal western 45 days service have the reservests based in their own villages with an obligation that they can be ordered else where. Village life is/was key to Vietnamese society, use that to you advantage.
Weapons; for an SMG how about the Owen? that woudl fit with a big aussie input to your TL. For other weapons, is the idea that there is a war with the north? (that will influence which weapons I would suggest
The Owen would be just about perfect because it was designed for warfare in the jungle, easy to manufacture in large numbers and because of it'd simple design it would be also easy to care for.
The main thing though is having good leadership for the ARVN and something real to fight for. Even if you keep villagers close to home, if they feel no loyalty to the RVN, why should they fight?
The main thing though is having good leadership for the ARVN and something real to fight for. Even if you keep villagers close to home, if they feel no loyalty to the RVN, why should they fight?
Pangur
Donor
There is the big problem re Vietnam - It does not matter what weapons you put in their hands or who instructs them if you don't crack the leadership and moral issue as well as its hand maiden corruption. I have been racking my brain for a viable answer. I seem to remember reading that not all the ARVN leadership were losers. Their paras I think were one good example. To give the soldiers a reason to follow one idea would be divide the VC from the people. Where you have a decent head man in a village, support him. Where not have him replaced with some who is up to scratch. Don't over tax them, respect religious views. However unless you have decent leadership in Saigon its going to go the same way as it did in OTL
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Thanks champion perhaps I have not been clear enough but the National Police will be responisible for the majority of the conflict. Ambush / counter insurgecy will devolvee to the National Police, the Army will focus on conventional warfare, so perhaps 75% on warfare, 25% on counterinsurgency.
Pangur
Donor
Nice plan At a guess then you will have the national police well armed. I ahve no idea how in the OTL the South Vietnamese police were equipped or organized however as an ex french colony I would suspect that were organized along the lines of the French police. Are you thinking about giving them helicopters?
La Rouge Beret
Donor
The National Police were be based on the 'Jungle Squad' model used by the Malaysian police during their own communist insurgency. I want to avoid useless duplication, particularly when we are thinking of a relatively poor country - so I'm not sure about the police having their own helicopters or merely they have the ability to utilise aircraft on / during specific operations in conjunction with the Army. Ted Serong will have a big influence on the development of the police, but I am trying to think of how the Police can improve their junior leadership considering that they will be the basis of the government's armed fight against the insurgency.
My thoughts would be the platoon commanders would undertake the same training as an army officer with a several different modules introduced for the differing role. But I think it is finding and then keeping quality corporal level soldiers will be difficult. This is before I even get to the militias - anyone have any thoughts there?
My thoughts would be the platoon commanders would undertake the same training as an army officer with a several different modules introduced for the differing role. But I think it is finding and then keeping quality corporal level soldiers will be difficult. This is before I even get to the militias - anyone have any thoughts there?
Pangur
Donor
The platoon commanders will need to understand and execute small unity actions, your sergants will however be the key to success How to retain, pay them well, treat them well and be fair . The same ideas hold for a militias with the addition of having them village/hamlet focued and organised
La Rouge Beret
Donor
The police force will operate in platoons up to companies as required or in a lower threat environment with section standing patrols etc. If they do a combined operation with the army I was thinking the Army would secure the escape routes around the village, whilst the police actually conducted the search.
If we move closer to the DMZ and the Ho Chi Minh trail the police would be responsible for maintaining the integrity of the supply lines. Happy to discuss further / flesh out my ideas.
If we move closer to the DMZ and the Ho Chi Minh trail the police would be responsible for maintaining the integrity of the supply lines. Happy to discuss further / flesh out my ideas.
What La Rouge Beret is envisioning (if I'm reading into it right) is more along the lines of the RATS from Mac's Invasion of Kenya story, ie: military forces in all but name so as to have more leeway and authority in operating.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
To address both points what I am envisaging is a paramilitary component of the National Police. If you scroll down the bottom of the page in the link that I have provided, this i what I am envisaging on a bigger scale.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/vietnam/rvn-national-police.htm
I hadn't thought of the comparison of the RATS from Invasion of Kenya but that would be pretty accurate. Incidentally a paramilitary force is what Ted Serong originally envisaged for the prosecution of a counter insurgency campaign, with the army used to guard South Vietnam's borders. This is the approach that I will take in my TL.
The other point is that this is 1956 / 1957 main unit NVA forces are not in country at the moment, they are not being supported by a complex web of logistical networks. If South Vietnam can secure their borders, which is my goal in this TL, then it will make a difficult job in pacifying the countryside easier.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Now for the Navy, the way that I am envisaging the Navy is as the smaller of the three services. Contemplating cutter class vessels and patrol vessels. Patrol vessels will initially be junks built with fibreglass hulls until the new government is able to purchase new vessels.
Still like the idea of the Casco class cutters, patrol boats (will need help with) and a maritime patrol aircraft - thinking HU 16 Amphibians or P - 2 Neptunes eventually. Although I would love to see the Van Spejik or Leander class in South Vietnamese colours. In the late 1960's the Navy will develop a submarine arm, but that is in the future.
Uncertain if I should pursue a Marine Corps or not, my preference at this stage is yes due to the prevalence of the riverine environment and the boarding operations on the coastline. Happy for ideas on this, if I don't go with Marines, then the Navy will have a special forces capability.
Still like the idea of the Casco class cutters, patrol boats (will need help with) and a maritime patrol aircraft - thinking HU 16 Amphibians or P - 2 Neptunes eventually. Although I would love to see the Van Spejik or Leander class in South Vietnamese colours. In the late 1960's the Navy will develop a submarine arm, but that is in the future.
Uncertain if I should pursue a Marine Corps or not, my preference at this stage is yes due to the prevalence of the riverine environment and the boarding operations on the coastline. Happy for ideas on this, if I don't go with Marines, then the Navy will have a special forces capability.