South Florida in a Confederate Victory TL
- Thread starter mikegold
- Start date
Philip
Donor
Based on population numbers, it will some time before the state is admitted. I expect a Union defeat to not be good for Lincoln's health. I would expect him to die before the population reaches a threshold of statehood.
Not for long. Assuming the EP was not issued before before the CSA victory, the Thirteenth Amendment will be coming quickly.
NothingNow
Banned
Yeah, but states pretty much always keep their territorial names.
You're Assuming too much. Such might not necessarily come to pass like that.
Because if South Florida exists it means the CSA has won and things are rarely named after losing leaders, ask Jefferson Davis.
Ask anyone in one of the several Davis Counties.
Any possibility of its keeping the name "Florida" as a way of unofficially irritating the CSA?
Wolfpaw
Banned
An exceptionally backwater area in an exceptionally backwater state populated mostly by ranchers, fishermen, and smugglers. Pirates, too, when things get bad and there's no CS coastguard to stop 'em. There'd probably be a noticeable Cuban community.
As for Miami, that was literally built on coke and Cubans.
As for Miami, that was literally built on coke and Cubans.
It's not impossible, but Lincoln isn't grandiose enough to name it after himself, the Democrats hate him, and the Radicals won't have much more use for him after a Union defeat. It might make sense to name it after a Southerner who can be presented as a Unionist: Jackson, Clay, Madison, even Washington.
What about Pahayokee?
Ask anyone in one of the several Davis Counties.
Yeah, Davis is a bad example (as is Lee). OTOH, I highly doubt a defeated Union will have a Lost Cause culture. More likely a Lost Generation culture.
Seminole? Wouldn't be the first time a state gets named after a people. Probably depends on how harsh Seminole/Union relations are. Considering that post-Seminole wars the Florida Seminole were literally considered too inconsequential to be bothered with probably means there wouldn't be much friction.
Edit: Miccosukee might also work.
NothingNow
Banned
Also, thinking about things, I just remembered Duncan grapefruit might actually be a perfect export product for the state, since they're already there (introduced by Count Odet Philippe to Tampa Bay in the 1830s, and were IOTL popularized by the Grapefruit Magnate, and namesake of the fruit, A.L. Duncan in the 1880s,) they were the perfect grapefruit, and were already sold to the troops at Fort Brooke in the period.
Properly packed, they can easily survive a week or two trip by sea and rail to a city, but it's an issue of getting demand up there.
Maybe some Fort Brooke officer's wife brings a few bushels back to DC as a novelty food for a party, and things sort of go from there?
EDIT: Then again, fuck it, Odet Philippe was colorful enough that, along with Tampa cigars might take off in Civil Society up north. If Napoleon's Doctor said they're good, who are you to argue?
Properly packed, they can easily survive a week or two trip by sea and rail to a city, but it's an issue of getting demand up there.
Maybe some Fort Brooke officer's wife brings a few bushels back to DC as a novelty food for a party, and things sort of go from there?
EDIT: Then again, fuck it, Odet Philippe was colorful enough that, along with Tampa cigars might take off in Civil Society up north. If Napoleon's Doctor said they're good, who are you to argue?
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There is no need to divide Florida. If the USA secures Key West and maybe a naval base at Pensacola in the peace treaty (say, in exchange for leaving Fort Pickens that has resisted through the war) then the area would be covered already.
That's one scenario I've never seen discussed. That the peace is "civilized", but it doesn't end with the USA giving away every part of the south it controls for free, and still keeps an eye to check that the Confederacy doesn't expand nor leases ports to European powers. The Monroe Doctrine, applied to the South.
That's one scenario I've never seen discussed. That the peace is "civilized", but it doesn't end with the USA giving away every part of the south it controls for free, and still keeps an eye to check that the Confederacy doesn't expand nor leases ports to European powers. The Monroe Doctrine, applied to the South.
soufsida
Banned
There were other names including native names from local rivers but they chose that for some reason during their half-ass convention
That is Civil War 2 in the making, right there. I doubt a separate CSA will withstand foreign domination given all the border shit going on...
It depends on how you define "victory"
In 1864-1865 anything that allows an independent CSA would be considered a Confederate victory.
A US state of South Florida would recognize the fact that probably 20% of the florida population were union sympathizers and there significant numbers of confederate deserters and escaped slaves who had no desire to return home. If you can have a West Virginia you can have a South Florida.
In 1864-1865 anything that allows an independent CSA would be considered a Confederate victory.
A US state of South Florida would recognize the fact that probably 20% of the florida population were union sympathizers and there significant numbers of confederate deserters and escaped slaves who had no desire to return home. If you can have a West Virginia you can have a South Florida.
I agree regarding the viability of a south Florida siezure, especially after a "guided" popular vote".
In a confederate victory scenario, however, there would be fewer deserters and being a confederate deserter was not always synonomous with being "zealously pro union". The union would be wise to be content with far south Florida sans Tampa.
NothingNow
Banned
You are aware that Pensacola is not only on the ass end of the state from key west, but that it's also in a region that was massively pro-confederate, far, far less defensible, and held the Majority of the population of the state? Pensacola's not even that good of a Harbor compared to what they did hold.
There's a thousand people in Tampa, and another 2000 in the rest of Hillsborough county. It's child's play to stuff a ballot box for a population that size, and if you offered to pay in gold for the cattle that were stolen (the main complaint of most ofthe Citizenry of the county at the time, besides the Union navy burning the odd blockade runner, or blowing up a salt pan,) they'd probably have to think about the offer for a minute anyway.
But then what happens? Tampa is accessible from other parts of the Confederacy. Even with a forced cease fire victory, the CSA has some military leverage. A confident CSA army led by General Lee, as the CSA is not taking chances, moves on Tampa.
The union can fortify it to where it cant be taken by assault. In this case, the union held area is very small and under harassing heavy artillery fire. Or, they can go for a bigger holding area and need to face the CSA in manuver warfare (always risky, especially after a CSA win). In either case, the union soldiers start asking: "There is supposed to be a cease fire, why are we here?"
But... with just far south Florida, the occupation is "out of sight, out of mind" and the CSA cant get to them through the everglades, even if they "want" to. Isolation protects the union occuaption and gives the CSA politicians a way out: "Yeah of course we would drive the Yankees out of that distant corner of our most sacred soil that few have ever been to, but we just cant get at them this year, or next year..., and well, there is really not alot down there anyways".
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NothingNow
Banned
At that time, Tampa was at the ass end of the state as well (There was really nothing south of St. Augustine at the time,) and at least a good two days by stage coach from anywhere else, while also being one of the few areas of south florida that actually was worth something. Without it and Manatee county, there's no point to holding anything north of Key Largo.
EDIT: And by Ass end of nowhere, I mean it was the only county with more than 1500 people for a good 300-400 miles, in a state that was massively underpopulated, out in the middle of nowhere compared to the rest of the CSA, and just a really shitty place to do anything.
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