South America colonizes the Pacific?

Yes, but one of the serious issues is the lack of a trained officer cadre. Most independentist armies were lead by officers that learned "on the go" so to speak and were against properly trained European officers.
Since the Napoleonic Wars are still ranging in the early 1810s, there won't be European mercenaries able to be hired, so to change this, we need deserters from the Spanish army like Jose de San Martin to, well, desert earlier.

I wouldn't necessarily bet on the lack of nationalism. When the Brazilians from Rio Grande do Sul rebelled, the governor of Buenos Aires offered the rebels to send Argentine troops to help them. They answered they would turn back, rejoin Brazil and attack the Argentines the moment they crossed into Brazil/Rio Grande do Sul.
And many people did go well beyond the call of duty. I'd say the national identities were being born as the war progressed. That doesn't mean the Altoperuvians felt themselves part of the Peruvian or Argentine nation, of course.

That's the point. A lot of the libertadores were officers in the Spanish Army that saw combat and then decided to fight for the freedom of their nations. Francisco de Miranda, for example, was a prominent officer in the Spanish Army and had participated in the American and French Revolutions. I think that a libertador organizing several desserters of the Spanish Army under his rule wouldn't be ASB. Also, there must be some officers that decide to join the patriots (some corps in Bogota and Caracas joined the Libertador Army for example). The key point is organizing for a revolution before actually starting it.

I meant when they were still colonies. Spaniards ("peninsulares") felt, well, Spanish; most Criollos probably did as well even when the Peninsulares didn't see them as equals; and it's likely that most natives and mestizos (the great majority) wouldn't have any national identity. Nationalism started to develop during the war, but the proccess wouldn't be complete until later, and even then it was more based in the common hatred of the enemy than the love for the nation . Riogranadienses disliked Brazil (let's just say that, we don't have time to analyze the reasons of their rebellion right now), that's why they rebelled, but they hated Argentina even more. Thus what holds a country in such a situation is interest of the regional ruling classes. Nationalism would develop later, integrating the country into a true nation.
 
That's the point. A lot of the libertadores were officers in the Spanish Army that saw combat and then decided to fight for the freedom of their nations. Francisco de Miranda, for example, was a prominent officer in the Spanish Army and had participated in the American and French Revolutions. I think that a libertador organizing several desserters of the Spanish Army under his rule wouldn't be ASB. Also, there must be some officers that decide to join the patriots (some corps in Bogota and Caracas joined the Libertador Army for example). The key point is organizing for a revolution before actually starting it.

I meant when they were still colonies. Spaniards ("peninsulares") felt, well, Spanish; most Criollos probably did as well even when the Peninsulares didn't see them as equals; and it's likely that most natives and mestizos (the great majority) wouldn't have any national identity. Nationalism started to develop during the war, but the proccess wouldn't be complete until later, and even then it was more based in the common hatred of the enemy than the love for the nation . Riogranadienses disliked Brazil (let's just say that, we don't have time to analyze the reasons of their rebellion right now), that's why they rebelled, but they hated Argentina even more. Thus what holds a country in such a situation is interest of the regional ruling classes. Nationalism would develop later, integrating the country into a true nation.

What existed even before the formation of nationalities were strong regional identities that we Somewhere cases persist to this day, which were united under the Portuguese or Spanish colonial administration. Later, according to the vicissitudes of the struggle for independence and subsequent civil wars they ended up developing a sense of belonging to a particular nation-state. Of course these feelings were strongly encouraged by the ruling elites ... which consciously exacerbated the common factors and differences with their neighboring peoples.

The factor of important professional soldiers but was not decisive since the human material available to the military leaders San Martín, Belgrano, Artigas, O'Higgins or Bolivar was not the same as they were accustomed its European congeners.

These leaders also his charisma had to be able to meet political and military roles and both have strong capabilities of tactical improvisation and important organizational skills.

Neither were the type of terrain and struggle they faced in America and yet these irregular troops defeated the British troops first and then in the independence wars, peninsular troops and loyal American militias to the Spanish crown, being able to take the initiative and take the war to the Spanish bastions.


In the case of the rebels of Rio Grande do Sul his reaction is explained if we remember that their leaders fought against the armies of the United Provinces and the rebels of the Eastern Band of the River Uruguay; which after defeat invaded Rio Grande do Sul.

On a deeper analysis it reveals that beyond the proto nationalism in the region: Brazilian, Uruguayan and Argentine ... supra had two identities, deeply present in the region the Castilian and Lusitane.

Inhabitants of border regions such as the Eastern Band, in the region of the former Jesuit missions or the Guarani and Rio Grande with a history of colonial struggles each other, were especially aware of the intensity of this common identity Portuguese or Spanish respectively.
 
What existed even before the formation of nationalities were strong regional identities that we Somewhere cases persist to this day, which were united under the Portuguese or Spanish colonial administration. Later, according to the vicissitudes of the struggle for independence and subsequent civil wars they ended up developing a sense of belonging to a particular nation-state. Of course these feelings were strongly encouraged by the ruling elites ... which consciously exacerbated the common factors and differences with their neighboring peoples.

The factor of important professional soldiers but was not decisive since the human material available to the military leaders San Martín, Belgrano, Artigas, O'Higgins or Bolivar was not the same as they were accustomed its European congeners.

These leaders also his charisma had to be able to meet political and military roles and both have strong capabilities of tactical improvisation and important organizational skills.

Neither were the type of terrain and struggle they faced in America and yet these irregular troops defeated the British troops first and then in the independence wars, peninsular troops and loyal American militias to the Spanish crown, being able to take the initiative and take the war to the Spanish bastions.


In the case of the rebels of Rio Grande do Sul his reaction is explained if we remember that their leaders fought against the armies of the United Provinces and the rebels of the Eastern Band of the River Uruguay; which after defeat invaded Rio Grande do Sul.

On a deeper analysis it reveals that beyond the proto nationalism in the region: Brazilian, Uruguayan and Argentine ... supra had two identities, deeply present in the region the Castilian and Lusitane.

Inhabitants of border regions such as the Eastern Band, in the region of the former Jesuit missions or the Guarani and Rio Grande with a history of colonial struggles each other, were especially aware of the intensity of this common identity Portuguese or Spanish respectively.

Yes, but those strong regional identities are the problem. If the poeple from, let's say, Upper Peru identify themselves first as Altoperuvians and then as Platineans, keeping La Plata united would be hard. The ruling classes mostly did what beneficied them more, and drawing frontiers as they liked was easy, since nobody had a true nationality yet and their region was first. Keeping a nation united for enough time until a national indentity, which surpases regional identities, is very important for nations, especially Latin American ones. It's somewhat sad that perhaps a war, a common enemy, would be the best way of uniting a nation.

I find your analysis of the differences between European warfare and the warfare of the Independence Wars and their leaders to be very accurate, and informative. I would add that, while Bolivar and other libertadores were the correct men for the war, they lacked the civilian abilities to actually run a country after the war ended. San Martin practically say "screw this!" and exilied himself to Europe while Bolivar wasn't able to instute a stable democracy that satisfied all the ruling classes.

I said that I wouldn't go into Rio Grande do Sul's rebellion in deep, that's why I only say the oversimplified "they disliked Brazil but hated Argentina more". However, I think you're right in that a common identity like "we're all Lusitane so we should stand togheter to the Spanish speakers!" was over the other identities that developed around that age. The scars of the struggle for the Banda Oriental, the Brazilian domination of Uruguay (provincia Cisplatina) and the clash of cultures produced such a situation.
 
Yes, but those strong regional identities are the problem. If the poeple from, let's say, Upper Peru identify themselves first as Altoperuvians and then as Platineans, keeping La Plata united would be hard. The ruling classes mostly did what beneficied them more, and drawing frontiers as they liked was easy, since nobody had a true nationality yet and their region was first. Keeping a nation united for enough time until a national indentity, which surpases regional identities, is very important for nations, especially Latin American ones. It's somewhat sad that perhaps a war, a common enemy, would be the best way of uniting a nation.

I find your analysis of the differences between European warfare and the warfare of the Independence Wars and their leaders to be very accurate, and informative. I would add that, while Bolivar and other libertadores were the correct men for the war, they lacked the civilian abilities to actually run a country after the war ended. San Martin practically say "screw this!" and exilied himself to Europe while Bolivar wasn't able to instute a stable democracy that satisfied all the ruling classes.

I said that I wouldn't go into Rio Grande do Sul's rebellion in deep, that's why I only say the oversimplified "they disliked Brazil but hated Argentina more". However, I think you're right in that a common identity like "we're all Lusitane so we should stand togheter to the Spanish speakers!" was over the other identities that developed around that age. The scars of the struggle for the Banda Oriental, the Brazilian domination of Uruguay (provincia Cisplatina) and the clash of cultures produced such a situation.


In the case of Alto Peru but for incompetence / arrogance of those in charge of commanding the first military campaign of the United Provinces there and 'betrayal' ... the result could have been different, and with respect to Paraguay if one or two battles would have had a different result ... well the tragic isolation that was self-imposed to Paraguay and maintained by the local oligarchy thanks to decades of political chaos and conflicts in the rest of the region could have been avoided.


The scars of the Cisplatin war were only the most recent of those produced by the Spanish-Portuguese rivalry in the region since the founding of the city or Portuguese outpost of Colonia del Sacramento, through the incursions of Bandeirantes and the military campaigns of the Spanish first Viceroy in the 'Plate': Pedro Antonio de Cevallos Cortés y Calderón .


Regarding the shortcomings of the Spanish American military leaders in the civil aspect although we can't generalize at all; on the other hand their failures were a product of the Spanish colonial system.
These system leaving only open to creoles ambitions service in the peninsular army and prevented them from his condition of American Spaniards having positions in the administration and the colonial government not only their home regions but throughout Spanish America beyond integrate the councils in their hometowns.

Thus denying them the possibility to gain experience and test their skills in the colonial government before trying it in the chaos of the revolution with all structures of government and the colonial administration, destroyed and discredited.

Another problem were the divergent and conflicting political projects including for example Federalist / autonomist and monarchists / centralist and within those factions and among them the struggle between those who wanted to deepen the revolution to social and racial aspect and those Criollos belonging to the oligarchs who feared for their privileges or those seeking to be part of the oligarchy and simply wanted a change of ruling classes in their exclusive benefit.
 
In the case of Alto Peru but for incompetence / arrogance of those in charge of commanding the first military campaign of the United Provinces there and 'betrayal' ... the result could have been different, and with respect to Paraguay if one or two battles would have had a different result ... well the tragic isolation that was self-imposed to Paraguay and maintained by the local oligarchy thanks to decades of political chaos and conflicts in the rest of the region could have been avoided.


The scars of the Cisplatin war were only the most recent of those produced by the Spanish-Portuguese rivalry in the region since the founding of the city or Portuguese outpost of Colonia del Sacramento, through the incursions of Bandeirantes and the military campaigns of the Spanish first Viceroy in the 'Plate': Pedro Antonio de Cevallos Cortés y Calderón .


Regarding the shortcomings of the Spanish American military leaders in the civil aspect although we can't generalize at all; on the other hand their failures were a product of the Spanish colonial system.
These system leaving only open to creoles ambitions service in the peninsular army and prevented them from his condition of American Spaniards having positions in the administration and the colonial government not only their home regions but throughout Spanish America beyond integrate the councils in their hometowns.

Thus denying them the possibility to gain experience and test their skills in the colonial government before trying it in the chaos of the revolution with all structures of government and the colonial administration, destroyed and discredited.

Another problem were the divergent and conflicting political projects including for example Federalist / autonomist and monarchists / centralist and within those factions and among them the struggle between those who wanted to deepen the revolution to social and racial aspect and those Criollos belonging to the oligarchs who feared for their privileges or those seeking to be part of the oligarchy and simply wanted a change of ruling classes in their exclusive benefit.

I agree with you about Paraguay and Alto Peru.

Yeah, but as the most recent they were also the most fresh in the collective memory of the people there. All those past incidents, wars and struggles were a factor too.

Alright, we can't generalize, but I was talking about the principal leaders. I agree again with you, they failed thanks to the Spanish colonial system. Changing the system itself would need far greater PODs and change Latin America itself, perhaps so greatly it would be unrecognizable. Even if it changes, the great division between the patriots ensured several civil wars that only caused more destruction and brought down their efforts against the Spanish. Having a middle ground is neccesary, but hard. In OTL the independence Wars didn't bring the so anheled social changes. The social pyramid was the same, just with the Criollos in top this time. Mestizos were still looked down, Natives were discriminated and expected only to shut up and work in their farms. The elites still controlled everything, and the Spanish colonial system still had repercussion in all the countries.
 
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