South Africa without (occidental) colonization?

[The Ubbergeek]

Some interrogations and thinking, tied to both alternate history of our world and my fantasy world, as I have a continent inspired by Africa and the (excellent) Nyambe setting...

Who lived in South Africa (and surrounding states) before the arrival of whites (and maybe Zulus, as I heard they just started settling the north, invaders...)? Koisans(?), so-called 'pygmies'? Was there 'empty' regions, like the Cape?

If the 'whiteys' didn't come, like if Europe never 'took' off by example, what would happens? Zulu Grand Empire, settling all? Would there be settlers from Malagasy culture(s) maybe, stuff like the trading counters in ancient Mediteranea? Could muslim powers go this far?

And would alternate crops be brought? Anything native or imported can grow well? Related question that I wonder about...

 

[EternalCynic]

Jared Diamond touched on this. He stated that because the Bantus developed crops more suited to a monsoon and warm climate, the European climate of South Africa will not be accessible to large scale Zulu settlement. The Western Cape was populated by nomadic Khoisan people without the means to develop dense settlements. Their modern descendants intermarried with white settlers and became the "Coloured" people.

Without the OTL Eurowank, the Western Cape would continue to be populated by nomadic Khoisan people. Without northern hemisphere flora and fauna being directly imported, it will continue to be that way because they cannot be diffused through tropical Africa. This could come through Indian or Arab trading networks, which form outposts around South Africa. A cliched Ming Dynasty Sinowank is plausible but less likely.

Geographic determinism is usually overrated, but sometimes it's very potent.

 

[pa_dutch]

From what I understand, the Cape area was sparsely settled by Khoisan nomads. The climate wasn't suitable for the tropical agriculture of the Bantu from the north, so they never moved in. Eventual Arab and Swahili movement south around the cape is not unlikely. They'd already reached as far as Sofala, which was located along the central coast of Mozambique. They could perhaps be the first to bring agriculture to the Cape, having crops that are more accommodating to the Mediterranean climate.

Without Europeans, they'd be no Zulu as we know them, but their ancestors, the Nguni, would still be around and would probably coalesce into various other chiefdoms and kingdoms. This would most definitely come about with influence from the northeast, where other inland Bantu peoples like the Shona of Zimbabwe were forming complex societies in response to coastal trade as part of the larger Indian Ocean trading. Mapungubwe, an early predecessor of Great Zimbabwe, was actually located within northeastern South Africa.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Still, is there 'african packages' crops that could reasonably end up adapted or used, like millet(?), or african rice, even with lesser results? In a moderate historic chronology range...

 

[Marius]

From what I understand, the Cape area was sparsely settled by Khoisan nomads. The climate wasn't suitable for the tropical agriculture of the Bantu from the north, so they never moved in. Eventual Arab and Swahili movement south around the cape is not unlikely. They'd already reached as far as Sofala, which was located along the central coast of Mozambique. They could perhaps be the first to bring agriculture to the Cape, having crops that are more accommodating to the Mediterranean climate.

Without Europeans, they'd be no Zulu as we know them, but their ancestors, the Nguni, would still be around and would probably coalesce into various other chiefdoms and kingdoms. This would most definitely come about with influence from the northeast, where other inland Bantu peoples like the Shona of Zimbabwe were forming complex societies in response to coastal trade as part of the larger Indian Ocean trading. Mapungubwe, an early predecessor of Great Zimbabwe, was actually located within northeastern South Africa.

Not true. Europeans were not responsible for the rise of the Zulu.

We may see the rise of a Zulu state covering OTL KwaZulu-Natal, and held in check by the Xhosa to the west, and the Sotho to the north.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Thank for the infos.


About the ancestry of malagasy peoples... They are tied distantly to the malays and other related groups. I wonder if a malay state power would one day return to trade in the area, but not sure if it is plausible or worthwhile for them. Or if there was contacts after those ancient days between the southeast asian islans and south of africa.

 

[Stair_Car]

Not true. Europeans were not responsible for the rise of the Zulu.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but I can tell you've not studied this in detail, or you wouldn't say that. It's perfectly fine to not know about something; that's what these discussions are for.

The VERY tldr version of the formation of the Zulu state is that the mfecane, an expanding wave of violent political innovation, expanded from its epicenter on the middle Mfolozi, the heart of Zulu territory. Advanced chiefdoms like the Mthetwa, of which the Zulu were a part, developed into legitimate states like those of the Zulu, Swati, Sotho, and others, as far north as the lakes region. This process built on existing Nguni institutions organically, but the initial push came from outside. Some people say it was the east African slave trade, more people say it was the introduction of maize. Either way, population pressures existed that would not have happened if there were no Europeans in the region.

That doesn't mean the Zulu wouldn't create an Nguni state eventually, but the Zulu as we know them actually would not arise in the early 1800s the way they did OTL.

I wrote a paper on this in grad school. If anyone's interested I might be able to find it in the depths of my flash drives.

 

[GeneralInTheShell]

I wrote a paper on this in grad school. If anyone's interested I might be able to find it in the depths of my flash drives.

I am interested

 

[Doctor Imperialism]

I am interested

As am I.

 

[Tyr]

European crops and animals may well move southwards without actual European settlement- if we get a bit of a bantu wank going and have some far more succesful coastal cities we can perhaps get a much stronger coastal trade going than OTL.
Maybe it'll take some bright Zuluesque chap on a visit to the Mediterranian to go "Hey, maybe these crops will work down in that useless part of Sotuh Africa?" or more likely imo it'll just be trial and error with the crops tried all over but only taking hold in the relevant place.

But then here we're talking about big WIs that dwarf the point of the original question.

 

[Stair_Car]

Alright, I'll see if I can find it when I get home tonight. It's not about alternate history, though. Nor is it about the role of Europeans. I even left out John Dunn for the sake of brevity. John Dunn was an English settler who became a sort of "chief" within the Zulu state. Fascinating material for alternate history. The paper was just about how the Zulu state developed from its bedrock of Southern Bantu society.

 

[Iori]

I don't mean to sound condescending, but I can tell you've not studied this in detail, or you wouldn't say that.

Considering Marius is South African..

 

[Stair_Car]

Considering Marius is South African..

Nevertheless, I assume he is a South African who has access to a university library.

 

[pa_dutch]

I don't mean to sound condescending, but I can tell you've not studied this in detail, or you wouldn't say that. It's perfectly fine to not know about something; that's what these discussions are for.

The VERY tldr version of the formation of the Zulu state is that the mfecane, an expanding wave of violent political innovation, expanded from its epicenter on the middle Mfolozi, the heart of Zulu territory. Advanced chiefdoms like the Mthetwa, of which the Zulu were a part, developed into legitimate states like those of the Zulu, Swati, Sotho, and others, as far north as the lakes region. This process built on existing Nguni institutions organically, but the initial push came from outside. Some people say it was the east African slave trade, more people say it was the introduction of maize. Either way, population pressures existed that would not have happened if there were no Europeans in the region.

That doesn't mean the Zulu wouldn't create an Nguni state eventually, but the Zulu as we know them actually would not arise in the early 1800s the way they did OTL.

I wrote a paper on this in grad school. If anyone's interested I might be able to find it in the depths of my flash drives.

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at - Thanks for expanding upon it. It's similar to the many Native American tribes that only formed after the arrival of Europeans... The arrival of Old World diseases and the push of coastal groups further inland sharply altered the ethnic and political landscape of Native North America long before many of these new groups ever saw a white man.

 

[Alex1guy]

I'm going to be blunt, I think it will be like the rest of Africa, an area of tribal infighting and poverty.The country of South Africa wouldn't exist and probably be a series of smaller states.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I'm going to be blunt, I think it will be like the rest of Africa, an area of tribal infighting and poverty.The country of South Africa wouldn't exist and probably be a series of smaller states.

There is some implications in this answer,....

You know, there was some strong nations in Africa. It lagged behind, yeah, but there was states and peace too at periods and regions.

 

[Iori]

I'm going to be blunt, I think it will be like the rest of Africa, an area of tribal infighting and poverty.The country of South Africa wouldn't exist and probably be a series of smaller states.

Europe had just as much infighting as Africa and Africa itself probably had LESS Poverty in terms of people starving than Europe did for a good part of the 19th century.

That aside, Africa is not some giant thing, while their were regions that were basically Tribal, Africa also had many different native states ranging from Monarchies (of various sorts) to what amount to Republics, and in general Urban society existed in all parts of the continent.

 

[Marius]

I don't mean to sound condescending, but I can tell you've not studied this in detail, or you wouldn't say that. It's perfectly fine to not know about something; that's what these discussions are for.

The VERY tldr version of the formation of the Zulu state is that the mfecane, an expanding wave of violent political innovation, expanded from its epicenter on the middle Mfolozi, the heart of Zulu territory. Advanced chiefdoms like the Mthetwa, of which the Zulu were a part, developed into legitimate states like those of the Zulu, Swati, Sotho, and others, as far north as the lakes region. This process built on existing Nguni institutions organically, but the initial push came from outside. Some people say it was the east African slave trade, more people say it was the introduction of maize. Either way, population pressures existed that would not have happened if there were no Europeans in the region.

That doesn't mean the Zulu wouldn't create an Nguni state eventually, but the Zulu as we know them actually would not arise in the early 1800s the way they did OTL.

I wrote a paper on this in grad school. If anyone's interested I might be able to find it in the depths of my flash drives.

It is still mainly speculation that the introduction of maize caused the population pressures in Zululand. Population pressures would probably have been there anyway, becuase of the poor harvests and drought of the early 19th century. In addition, Zulu supremacy was already on the rise by the late 18th century, so it is not a given that without European influence we would not have seen the rise of the Zulu.

In addition, a number of historians say that the scale of the Mfecane may well have been exaggerated, so as to be used as a propaganda tool by the Apartheid government to claim that the South African hinterland was almost depopulated by the time of the arrival of the white settlers.

 

[Snake Featherston]

The Khoisan peoples were the primary inhabitants, existing in pastoral and hunter-gatherer subcultures. Without the Occidentals you're more likely to see a much deeper colonization by Bantu peoples and either the Xhosa or the Zulu may become for South Africa what Benin and Dahomey were for West Africa.

 

[Snake Featherston]

I'm going to be blunt, I think it will be like the rest of Africa, an area of tribal infighting and poverty.The country of South Africa wouldn't exist and probably be a series of smaller states.

So in other words much like everywhere else in the world in this timeframe, then?

It is still mainly speculation that the introduction of maize caused the population pressures in Zululand. Population pressures would probably have been there anyway, becuase of the poor harvests and drought of the early 19th century. In addition, Zulu supremacy was already on the rise by the late 18th century, so it is not a given that without European influence we would not have seen the rise of the Zulu.

In addition, a number of historians say that the scale of the Mfecane may well have been exaggerated, so as to be used as a propaganda tool by the Apartheid government to claim that the South African hinterland was almost depopulated by the time of the arrival of the white settlers.

Well, that speculation is more reasonable than most. The introduction of Maize *did* produce population booms all over the world, so.......it doing so in south Africa is quite believable. As is the potential that population booms = wars of unification, a general rule of thumb that has held true in other parts of the world as well. The problem comes in how people tend to use that, which works more for "Whitey made blacks organize" which is just plain bad history.