South Africa: The Other Cradle of Civilization

Thermopylae · Jun 10, 2006

South Africa has a very similar climate to Europe, in that it is temperate. That is partially the reason why the Dutch/English had such an easy time colonizing it.

So, going off of this, suppose a crop similar to wheat and/or rice develops in South Africa. What happens next? Would this be enough to create some sort of advanced civilization (assuming domestication follows)?

Even if it doesn't stay on-par technologically with the rest of Europe, what would the ramifications of a civilization in South Africa with technology similar to the Incans of OTL be?

Straha · Jun 10, 2006

When the euros find it they immediently assume its prestor john's kingdom until the lack of christianity in it shows them otherwise.

Wendell · Jun 10, 2006

Straha said:
When the euros find it they immediently assume its prestor john's kingdom until the lack of christianity in it shows them otherwise.

Would it be impossible to have it be a Christian Kingdom?

Straha · Jun 11, 2006

Wendell said:
Would it be impossible to have it be a Christian Kingdom?

Not impossible just extremely, extremely unlikely. If you can construct a world where we DO have prestor john's kingdom in south africa without invoking ASBs I wouldn't midn seeing your rap on it.

Wendell · Jun 11, 2006

Straha said:
Not impossible just extremely, extremely unlikely. If you can construct a world where we DO have prestor john's kingdom in south africa without invoking ASBs I wouldn't midn seeing your rap on it.

I do not have any such timeline at present.

Straha · Jun 11, 2006

Wendell said:
I do not have any such timeline at present.

Fair enough.

NFR · Jun 11, 2006

Thermopylae said:
South Africa has a very similar climate to Europe, in that it is temperate. That is partially the reason why the Dutch/English had such an easy time colonizing it.

So, going off of this, suppose a crop similar to wheat and/or rice develops in South Africa. What happens next? Would this be enough to create some sort of advanced civilization (assuming domestication follows)?

Even if it doesn't stay on-par technologically with the rest of Europe, what would the ramifications of a civilization in South Africa with technology similar to the Incans of OTL be?

Just a quibble, but if they had a civilization with technology similar to the Incans, it would be a few steps backwards - they had stone castles, iron-working, agriculture, domesticated animals like cattle, and a fairly sophisticated diplomatic/ political package.

Max Sinister · Jun 11, 2006

South Africa alone is too small to develop a variety of crops, like Eurasia or even North America had.

NFR · Jun 11, 2006

Max Sinister said:
South Africa alone is too small to develop a variety of crops, like Eurasia or even North America had.

Not by itself, sure. But, the Bantus and friends already had a pretty decent food package. It isn't hard to imagine them rounding it out with some exchange with the Arabs or India. Come to think of it, their package (wheat cattle etc) weren't indigenous, either.

teg · Sep 17, 2011

May I direct you to when the last post before your own was? Don't necro.

tallwingedgoat · Sep 17, 2011

You just have to get the crop/animal package from the Middle East/Ethiopia to South Africa by sea.

eschaton · Sep 17, 2011

tallwingedgoat said:
You just have to get the crop/animal package from the Middle East/Ethiopia to South Africa by sea.

I've been thinking about this for awhile.

According to Egyptian records, at least one Phoenician expedition circumnavigated Africa. Even if it didn't, it's possible Hanno the Navigator could have gotten further on his journey, and reached the Cape. A property provisioned Phoenician fleet could have easily introduced the Middle East's agricultural package to Southern Africa.

The problem is, of course, they wouldn't settle there just because, as it was rather far for a trading post, and as undeveloped land with scarce hunter gatherers held nothing worthwhile. But if some of the ships went aground there, they could have formed a self-sufficient state. Say a few ships go back for help, and by the time people return to check on them (which will probably be a decade or more) many people will have settled in and not want to leave.

Pachac · Sep 17, 2011

The Phoenicians didn't ever get further than Gabon. The whole shtick with Pharaoh Necho was a myth purported by Herodotus and generally denied by Modern historians. I think that simply finding a local grass and developing it into a crop, or using a crop from Europe(Most likely emmer wheat) brought there by sparrows during their annual voyage from Spain to the Cape. It is likely that after hundreds of years it would developed in conjunction with the hunter-gatherer lifestyle of the Khoikhoi before eventually subverting it. Then we have a native civilization with a good starting cereal, that could possibly expand into such areas as the southern Cape, where the conditions, though harder than in the Western Cape, could be farmed. Once the migrations of the Bantu end up in that area the potential for expansion into the highlands and Natal become open. Sorghum and cattle would definitely assist them, as would iron. Though, of course, it would probably first entail a catastrophic collapse of said civilization equivalent to the bronze age collapse.

Chirios · Oct 1, 2011

Thermopylae said:
South Africa has a very similar climate to Europe, in that it is temperate. That is partially the reason why the Dutch/English had such an easy time colonizing it.

So, going off of this, suppose a crop similar to wheat and/or rice develops in South Africa. What happens next? Would this be enough to create some sort of advanced civilization (assuming domestication follows)?

Even if it doesn't stay on-par technologically with the rest of Europe, what would the ramifications of a civilization in South Africa with technology similar to the Incans of OTL be?

How do you define advanced, and how early are we talking about here?

It'd boost the population, massively. Bantu and Basarwa cultures would intermix, possibly we'd see stronger trade relations with the Middle East and India.

edvardas · Oct 1, 2011

Herootus says that they circumnavigators stopped along the way to plant a wheat crop. The cape area was the first area after Yemen where they could plant a wheat crop.
So they planted a wheat crop. In the several months while they were waiting for the crop, they would have been trading and interacting with the Khoi. the khoi would have learned that wheat was a good thing to grow. Also the Phoenicians would have had horses. Suppose some of these horse got away. Then the Khoi would have begun riding the horses as the Americans did. If they had started to grow wheat and they had horses, they would have an advantage over the Bantuespecially if they could shoot on horseback with their poisoned arrows. While Natal would have been the frontier in the lowlands, the Khoi could have expanded into the high veldt
According to Herodotus the phoenicians attempted one other circuamnavigation. but this time the went west first, and it did not succeed. If they went through the red sea first, they could have been successful.
The second voyage could have resulted in a regular trading post. If they had not found gold and diamonds yet, they could have traded in exotic animals such as penguins. Seals and whales could also have been valuable for their fur and oil.
I am thinking about a timeline in which there is regular trade between the phoenicans and the Khoi. Then about 220 BCE the Phoenicians would recruit adventurous khoi horsemen to aid Hannibal against Rome.

tallwingedgoat · Oct 1, 2011

Given their proximity to the Arab trade routes, it's a wonder horses and donkeys didn't spread there when they had cattle.

South African people were never regarded as sophisticated as the Incas and Aztecs despite their technological advantages. I believe this is due to three factors.

First they didn't have stone buildings. While Great Zimbabwe had stone constructions, no one was building them when the Europeans arrived. By then it was just villages of straw huts.

Second there weren't that many natives. This was largely due to the lower yielding crops. South Africa had an assortment of crops like pumpkins and such which were no where as productive as maize.

Finally the Africans didn't wear clothes. They were naked except for grass skirts and furs.

The most useful crop for them IMO would be flax, which could be sourced from Ethiopia and the Middle East. The seeds would be food, and the fiber could be made into linen for cloth and linothorax armor. More food and industry would necessitate larger, walled cities.

Pachac · Oct 1, 2011

edvardas said:
Herootus says that they circumnavigators stopped along the way to plant a wheat crop. The cape area was the first area after Yemen where they could plant a wheat crop.
So they planted a wheat crop. In the several months while they were waiting for the crop, they would have been trading and interacting with the Khoi. the khoi would have learned that wheat was a good thing to grow. Also the Phoenicians would have had horses. Suppose some of these horse got away. Then the Khoi would have begun riding the horses as the Americans did. If they had started to grow wheat and they had horses, they would have an advantage over the Bantuespecially if they could shoot on horseback with their poisoned arrows. While Natal would have been the frontier in the lowlands, the Khoi could have expanded into the high veldt
According to Herodotus the phoenicians attempted one other circuamnavigation. but this time the went west first, and it did not succeed. If they went through the red sea first, they could have been successful.
The second voyage could have resulted in a regular trading post. If they had not found gold and diamonds yet, they could have traded in exotic animals such as penguins. Seals and whales could also have been valuable for their fur and oil.
I am thinking about a timeline in which there is regular trade between the phoenicans and the Khoi. Then about 220 BCE the Phoenicians would recruit adventurous khoi horsemen to aid Hannibal against Rome.

Do not ever use Herodotus for anything on Africa further than Libya.

Chirios · Oct 2, 2011

tallwingedgoat said:
First they didn't have stone buildings. While Great Zimbabwe had stone constructions, no one was building them when the Europeans arrived. By then it was just villages of straw huts.

Yes they did. When Great Zimbabwe failed they moved northwards to Mutapa. There were also several smaller stone buildings being built in modern day Mozambique as late as 1800.

Second there weren't that many natives. This was largely due to the lower yielding crops. South Africa had an assortment of crops like pumpkins and such which were no where as productive as maize.

True.

Finally the Africans didn't wear clothes. They were naked except for grass skirts and furs.

Bollucks. This website shows what traditional african clothing in South Africa was like, you'll see that the basotho wore clothes, and if you search traditional Shona and Kalanga clothing you'll see they were clothes as well.

The most useful crop for them IMO would be flax, which could be sourced from Ethiopia and the Middle East. The seeds would be food, and the fiber could be made into linen for cloth and linothorax armor. More food and industry would necessitate larger, walled cities.

Maybe, though I'm skeptical about how well it would grow in most of South Africa.

Grimm Reaper · Oct 2, 2011

The likelihood of the alleged Phoenician circumnavigators dragging horses along with them on a trip expected to take years is zero.

People as experienced in such travel as the Phoenicians would not burden themselves with such animals over a period expected to take years when there isn't even a reason to have them along, not to mention the space required to feed the horses, care for them, etc.

Monty Burns · Oct 2, 2011

Grimm Reaper said:
The likelihood of the alleged Phoenician circumnavigators dragging horses along with them on a trip expected to take years is zero.

This.

So to summarize, the problems with a "more civilized" South Africa is that they'd be too isolated to develop the same variety of crops and cattle and technologies as seen in Europe or Asia. On ther other side, the Phoenicians would only make it to Gaboon.

Now if the Phoenicians would go the other way round, they'd reach pretty far south. And the Egyptians had contact with Punt, which is likely in East Africa or Southern Arabia. So what about a more developped Eastern Africa as a whole? If you have Punt and later Ethiopia better developped and a trading society sprung up around Sansibar (which IMHO could be expected there anyway, yet not with the technological capacity to link Arabia and South Africa), you'll have the necessary links. South Africa wouldn't be isolated, yet only at the very extreme reach of an East-African trade system.