(Sort of) a TLIAW: 1485 - Stanley's Dilemma

Nicely ended. It does of course leave many questions unanswered, but that's no problem for me. I do know one thing though; if I were Stanley I would not want to be visiting my wife any time soon! Personally, I like the allusion to Shakespeare.
Thank you for the kind words.

I do admit though that I think Stanley choosing Richard over Henry is unlikely unless Richard's already offered him a deal that's too good to turn down. Having said that, ITTL Richard would probably be much more grateful towards Stanley than he would have if Stanley had thrown into the battle straight away so I have no doubt he will get a good reward from his chosen king.
I must admit, I wasn't 100% sure where to send him until the moment I revealed it to you guys. To go one way would be just following OTL, whereas to go the other would be to use the most overdone PoD in British history after 1066. I decided to have Stanley dwell on his replies to the messengers, rather than any of the promises made by them. I think it's fair to say that Stanley went to the highest bidder, so it'll be interesting to see what the price was.
 
I really like this! I can't wait to see how it resolves. I've thought a TL about a surviving Yorkist dynasty would be great. The only problem is that Richard III's heir died before the POD.
Nevertheless, good work, I look forward to more.
Scipio
I do have plans to do a longer "Surviving Yorkist" TL, but need to do more research first. This was just something to get me writing in the meantime. To lose my TL virginity, if you will. If or when i eventually happens, the PoD will be quite a bit earlier.

Do you mean pick a king or try to become one himself? If the latter, I think he'd have huge difficulties in pulling it off. The former would probably both delight and terrify him.
I admit I didn't go down this route, but I did contemplate it. I did wonder whether he'd be tempted into trying to get his son married off to Princess Elizabeth. As it turned out, I suspect a quiet life in a nunnery is the very best she can hope for.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing exactly what Stanley had planned.
I think Richard's mad dash across the field disrupted whatever Stanley's grand plan was. I almost put a reference to a war over three hundred years later in when Stanley talked to Richard. Had Stanley referred to his King's charge as "Glorious", instead of bold, can you see where I would go with Richard's response...

Ultimately, I thought there was enough of a whiff of cheese in the horse line, so left it out.

A march to look after? Something to keep him busy, certainly.
I'm not sure whether he would be put somewhere to keep him very busy, or whether Richard would prefer to keep him very close...
 
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I did wonder whether he'd be tempted into trying to get his son married off to Princess Elizabeth. As it turned out, I suspect a quiet life in a nunnery is the very best she can hope for.
IOTL, I think that the plan was to marry her off to a member of the Portuguese royal family (the Duke of Braganza?) as part of the deal to get a Portuguese princess as Richard's second wife.
 
IOTL, I think that the plan was to marry her off to a member of the Portuguese royal family (the Duke of Braganza?) as part of the deal to get a Portuguese princess as Richard's second wife.

Unless of course you believe the idea that Richard planned to marry her himself.
 
IOTL, I think that the plan was to marry her off to a member of the Portuguese royal family (the Duke of Braganza?) as part of the deal to get a Portuguese princess as Richard's second wife.
If he feels secure enough to let her go, it'd be a decent exchange for him. The problem comes with the fact that he declared her father a bastard. How does he resolve that? He can either admit that he made the whole thing up, or claim he's selling the Portuguese either a bastard's bastard, or a bastard's daughter (did he claim Elizabeth was illegitimate, or just her brothers)

Unless of course you believe the idea that Richard planned to marry her himself.
I can't say I buy into this theory. Irrespective of the consanguinity and such, it runs headlong into the problems outlined above.
 
I can't say I buy into this theory. Irrespective of the consanguinity and such, it runs headlong into the problems outlined above.

I tend to agree. It would also bring the problem of potentially alienating those supporters he got from his marriage to his dead wife and would probably not get him much support from the Yorkists who don't already support him. He's also eliminated most of the potential claimants to the throne (except pretenders like Warbeck) so there's no real reason for him to try and reinforce his own position. I did feel that I should mention the existence of the idea though, both at the time and now. I don't think there are that many believers now and I doubt there were many in 1485 either, but the gossip and theory are certainly real if implausible. Personally I suspect it was all gossip spread by Richard's enemies.
 
I tend to agree. It would also bring the problem of potentially alienating those supporters he got from his marriage to his dead wife and would probably not get him much support from the Yorkists who don't already support him. He's also eliminated most of the potential claimants to the throne (except pretenders like Warbeck) so there's no real reason for him to try and reinforce his own position. I did feel that I should mention the existence of the idea though, both at the time and now. I don't think there are that many believers now and I doubt there were many in 1485 either, but the gossip and theory are certainly real if implausible. Personally I suspect it was all gossip spread by Richard's enemies.
Don't apologise, you were right to bring it up. Even if it was all negative propaganda, it was widely repeated at the time. It was very damaging to his cause, as well as making Henry more determined he had to move sooner rather than later...
 
(did he claim Elizabeth was illegitimate, or just her brothers)

He claimed the marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was bigamous and thus invalid, and thus all issue was illegitimate.

I suppose he could legitimize them (a la the Beauforts) or just offer them a bastard; it's not like royal bastards haven't gotten good marriages before.
 
He claimed the marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was bigamous and thus invalid, and thus all issue was illegitimate.
Thanks for that, I couldn't remember.

I suppose he could legitimize them (a la the Beauforts) or just offer them a bastard; it's not like royal bastards haven't gotten good marriages before.
Both are options. Were I going to continue this, I would have to consider such things...
 
He claimed the marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was bigamous and thus invalid, and thus all issue was illegitimate.

I suppose he could legitimize them (a la the Beauforts) or just offer them a bastard; it's not like royal bastards haven't gotten good marriages before.
And the Portuguese royal family was apparently willing to consider the deal anyway. Then again, their first king's mother had been a royal bastard (daughter of the King of Leon, the realm to which Portugal had belonged [as a County] until then) herself, so that arguably had set a precedent of sorts...
 
And the Portuguese royal family was apparently willing to consider the deal anyway. Then again, their first king's mother had been a royal bastard (daughter of the King of Leon, the realm to which Portugal had belonged [as a County] until then) herself, so that arguably had set a precedent of sorts...

Not only that, but the ruling Portuguese Royal House at the time of Richard III - the House of Aviz - was founded by a bastard son of Peter I of Portugal (John I, Master of Aviz, was illegitimate, but he was declared king by the Portuguese Cortes in order to avoid the kingdom be ruled by Castile).
 
Not only that, but the ruling Portuguese Royal House at the time of Richard III - the House of Aviz - was founded by a bastard son of Peter I of Portugal (John I, Master of Aviz, was illegitimate, but he was declared king by the Portuguese Cortes in order to avoid the kingdom be ruled by Castile).
In other words, there was definitely precedent for such an action, if pragmatism suggested so? Interesting...
 
nice timeline, but I am not sure that you are aware of the "war" that Stanley and Gloucester in the North West of England around the Ribble area in the early 1480's.

It was a war based upon the fight for supremacy of the Lancashire are, a traditional Stanley power base. Richard was the upstart using powers granted to him by his brother and backing the Harrington family in their fued with the Stanley's .

There are local traditions of captured Gloucester standards being displayed in a local church near Ribble till after the civil war.

So overall, his wife and his history with Richard............can't see him helping " The Usurper "
 
nice timeline, but I am not sure that you are aware of the "war" that Stanley and Gloucester in the North West of England around the Ribble area in the early 1480's.

It was a war based upon the fight for supremacy of the Lancashire are, a traditional Stanley power base. Richard was the upstart using powers granted to him by his brother and backing the Harrington family in their fued with the Stanley's .

There are local traditions of captured Gloucester standards being displayed in a local church near Ribble till after the civil war.

So overall, his wife and his history with Richard............can't see him helping " The Usurper "
Thanks for the comments. As I said in the intro, this was mainly a writing exercise, as opposed to an attempt at a timeline able to stand up to serious historical scrutiny. If I were to write a "Richard wins at Bosworth" TL that was going on to look at the ramifications, I would not use this as the PoD, or would do significantly more to explain how such an event came about. I really wanted to see if I could write a story that people would enjoy reading, and most of the feedback has been rather supportive regarding this. Do you yourself have any comments or critiques about the writing?

That being said, Stanley must have been fairly inscrutable. My reading suggests that while Richard distrusted Stanley - with good reason, admittedly - Henry didn't exactly trust him either. Both tried bribery and blackmail to ensure he'd support them, but began the battle unsure of the man's loyalties. Of course, this could be because Richard was clutching at a desperate hope as his kingdom slipped from his hands, and a healthy dose of paranoia on Henry's part. Nevertheless, I thought there was enough doubt in their minds to let me wring a story out of it.

I certainly hadn't come across that snippet about the standards in the church, so thanks for that information. If nothing else, it could be a nice little thing to include in a Tudor or Stuart TL, given half the chance. :)

Thanks for reading my humble offering, and taking the time to write a reply, especially one as informative as this! It's always nice to know somebody else has taken a look at my little outburst of writing. :)
 
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