Son of Joseph II

Ok so I think it would be fair to say that history would be different if Joseph the second had a son by either of his two wives. Thus I have three questions...

1) Let’s day Isabella of Parma gives birth to a healthy son around January of 1763 when she had in OTL a stillbirth. She would probably die, but what could change? With his family lineage he’d probably live until around 1810-1815.

2) What if in 1766 or 1767 Joseph’s Bavarian bride gave birth to a healthy son. This would probably have implications in the War of Bavarian Succession, and I would like to know what these could be.

3) What would his education be like, who would he marry? I’d assume he’d be given an Enlightened Education, but would he support the Josephine reforms?
 
1) That puts him squarely in the time period for the Revolutionary & Napoleonic wars. I'd think that he like his father would react strongly to the Republic (esp. after they killed his aunt) but would likely be able to come to some settlement with Napoleon with a more liberal outlook as a classical Enlightened Despot. Maybe he demands the return of Silesia in exchange for Austrian help vs. Prussia? If Napoleon wins, then ripples change all of European history afterward massively.

2) Same as above to some extent; the son doesn't have much of a claim to the Bavarian throne beyond that of Joseph II and Maria Theresa's veto of any conflict will likely slow down the war. It might be possible to marry the son into whatever branch of the Wittelsbachs or another family ends up inheiriting possibly resulting in an Austrian inheritance down the road but I think the Napoleonic butterflies are more interesting ITTL.

3) For a marriage in either case I'd think Marie-Therese of France would be a likely candidate to strengthen Hapsburg-Bourbon ties. There isn't really a Spanish Bourbon bride of suitable age as far as I could tell; certainly no Hohenzollern or Romanov; and I couldn't find any Wittelsbach. There would also be a possibility of it being a daughter of George III but I'd say Marie-Therese would be more likely. As for the Enlightenment Education, yes he would, and he'd be old enough to maintain his father's policies if he wanted to, though doing so would likely result in a civil war with the Hungarian magnates and the breakaway of the Austrian Netherlands (Either declaring themselves independent, joining the Dutch Republic, or being absorbed by the French Republic as IOTL). More likely he'd make a compromise with the Hungarians and Belgians (I know it's anachronistic to use that ethnonym) probably reinstating a limited form of serfdom in exchange for solidifying his other reforms. This assumes his character is a plastic clone of his father's of course, which won't necessarily be true.

Overall, I think it rather likely that he allies with Napoleon, a fellow Enlightened Despot, against Prussia and later Russia (IOTL after all they stayed relatively neutral for many of the wars even under much more conservative monarchs). Some settlement will have to be reached over Italy; I find it likely that the following deal emerges: 1) Austria formally cedes the Austrian Netherlands to the First French Empire, 2) Leopold is confirmed as Grand Duke of Tuscany, 3) Austria keeps Piedmont and possibly formally annexes Venetia in exchange for 4) France annexing Piedmont-Savoy and a Bonaparte on the throne of the Two Sicilies. This possibly can result in Austro-French dominance of the Continent (might even butterfly away the dissolution of the HRE), though it's unsure to me if they could beat the Russians, Prussians, and British (though maybe Joseph III can persuade Napoleon to remain relatively peaceful). Regardless there are massive butterflies in German and thus European history; if the Habsburgs can persuade Napoleon or his heirs to countenance it and remain more liberal in their outlook there's a chance of them uniting all of southern and central Germany under their banner as German Nationalism comes into play. Prussia ITTL becomes something akin to Italy, a noticeable but most definitely second-rate power.
 
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For a marriage in either case I'd think Marie-Therese of France would be a likely candidate to strengthen Hapsburg-Bourbon ties. There isn't really a Spanish Bourbon bride of suitable age as far as I could tell; certainly no Hohenzollern or Romanov; and I couldn't find any Wittelsbach. There would also be a possibility of it being a daughter of George III but I'd say Marie-Therese would be more likely.

What's wrong with Franz II's OTL first wife, Elisabeth of Württemberg? She's well connected (and far closer in age than Marie Thérèse de Bourbon (who'd be 15years younger if he's born in 1763)).

Other options might be Maria Ana of Portugal (daughter of Maria I) (b.1768). Maria I's youngest sister, Benedita, was considered for Josef II's second wife (there was a ship to sail her to Belgium built and everything IIRC), but Josef turned her down/the queen (Mariana Vittoria of Spain) refused.

If Isabel dies in Jan 1763, there's absolutely nothing to stop Josef rewedding to his OTL sister-in-law, Maria Luisa of Naples (Leopold II's wife). She was originally slated for his next brother, Karl, and when he died, all the betrothals moved one down (Leopold's betrothed Maria Beatrice of Modena married Ferdinand, while Karl's betrothed married Leopold). And Isabella getting Josef caused a rift between her mom (Louise Élisabeth de France) and Queen Maria Amalie of Naples (Maria Luisa's mom)'s formerly amicable relationship.

So, if Josef is widowed earlier, the marriage contract will be adjusted to allow Maria Luisa to marry the emperor, and while, as future grand duke of Tuscany, Leopold's not likely to get Maria Beatrice, he might either get Maria José (Luisa's sister who stayed unwed - though she was offered to the king of France (Louis XV) and duc d'Orléans, as well as her uncle Luis, conde de Chinchon; the duke of Chablais and Stanislas II Poniatowski also put in suits for her hand AFAIK
 
What's wrong with Franz II's OTL first wife, Elisabeth of Württemberg? She's well connected (and far closer in age than Marie Thérèse de Bourbon (who'd be 15years younger if he's born in 1763)).

Other options might be Maria Ana of Portugal (daughter of Maria I) (b.1768). Maria I's youngest sister, Benedita, was considered for Josef II's second wife (there was a ship to sail her to Belgium built and everything IIRC), but Josef turned her down/the queen (Mariana Vittoria of Spain) refused.

If Isabel dies in Jan 1763, there's absolutely nothing to stop Josef rewedding to his OTL sister-in-law, Maria Luisa of Naples (Leopold II's wife). She was originally slated for his next brother, Karl, and when he died, all the betrothals moved one down (Leopold's betrothed Maria Beatrice of Modena married Ferdinand, while Karl's betrothed married Leopold). And Isabella getting Josef caused a rift between her mom (Louise Élisabeth de France) and Queen Maria Amalie of Naples (Maria Luisa's mom)'s formerly amicable relationship.

So, if Josef is widowed earlier, the marriage contract will be adjusted to allow Maria Luisa to marry the emperor, and while, as future grand duke of Tuscany, Leopold's not likely to get Maria Beatrice, he might either get Maria José (Luisa's sister who stayed unwed - though she was offered to the king of France (Louis XV) and duc d'Orléans, as well as her uncle Luis, conde de Chinchon; the duke of Chablais and Stanislas II Poniatowski also put in suits for her hand AFAIK
I think the daughter-in-law of Joseph will be either the girl he OTL choised (as russian-proxy bride) for his designated heir, aka Elisabeth of Württemberg or Maria Theresa of Bourbon-Naples or Maria Theresa of Tuscany if he want a niece as daughter-in-law...
With an healthy son Joseph will likely remarry later than OTL but to the same bride (the agreement between he and his mom was a German Catholic princess)
 
What about the youngest sister, Elisabeth, of King Louis XVI? I can see it being arranged along with Marie Antoinettes marriage to the Dauphin in a sort of dual marriage.

And I can’t really see the son of Joseph supporting or eventually allying himself to Napoleon or France as long as their not under the Bourbons, especially if he accompanies his father to France in either 1777 or 1781 and if he meets his aunt and uncle. If this is the case, I’m sure we’d see a much more organized plan by the Emperor to get the French royal family out of France and either to the Austrian Netherlands or Germany or Austria.

And would it be possible for the son of Joseph to become Elector of Bavaria at one point? Jospeh tried to use his claim as husband to Maria Josepha as validation, but with an actual son by her his sons claim would be much stronger. Would it be plausible to have Charles Theodore of the Palatinate get the Austrian Netherlands as proposed in OTL?
 
And what about names. I can think he may be named Joseph. But I can also see Francis, Charles, or Franz Joseph. Thoughts?
 
And what about names. I can think he may be named Joseph. But I can also see Francis, Charles, or Franz Joseph. Thoughts?
Franz II Karl likely after Joseph’s father and grandfather... Joseph can be the third name... Karl VII Franz Joseph also can work

Elisabeth of France will not marry anyone as OTL as staying in France unmarried was her own choice and she will refute any match plus Joseph would be much more interested in Elisabeth of Württemberg for her Russian connections
 
I see. But would it be possible for the son of Joseph to become Elector of Bavaria at one point? Jospeh tried to use his claim as husband to Maria Josepha as validation, but with an actual son by her hissons claim would be much stronger.
 
I see. But would it be possible for the son of Joseph to become Elector of Bavaria at one point? Jospeh tried to use his claim as husband to Maria Josepha as validation, but with an actual son by her hissons claim would be much stronger.
Didn’t Bavaria practice Salic law?
 
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What about the youngest sister, Elisabeth, of King Louis XVI? I can see it being arranged along with Marie Antoinettes marriage to the Dauphin in a sort of dual marriage.

And I can’t really see the son of Joseph supporting or eventually allying himself to Napoleon or France as long as their not under the Bourbons, especially if he accompanies his father to France in either 1777 or 1781 and if he meets his aunt and uncle. If this is the case, I’m sure we’d see a much more organized plan by the Emperor to get the French royal family out of France and either to the Austrian Netherlands or Germany or Austria.

And would it be possible for the son of Joseph to become Elector of Bavaria at one point? Jospeh tried to use his claim as husband to Maria Josepha as validation, but with an actual son by her his sons claim would be much stronger. Would it be plausible to have Charles Theodore of the Palatinate get the Austrian Netherlands as proposed in OTL?

Except that in 1770, Élisabeth (Babette) is all of 6yo (so more likely to marry Josef's son than Josef). And once Louis XVI becomes king the chances go to zero. Antoinette didn't want to part with the girl (she even persuaded Louis to refuse Babette permission to join a convent), and Louis IIRC, turned down a match for his sister when the Portuguese came sniffing around for her to marry José, prince of Beira.

As to Josef's son becoming elector of Bavaria, I'd say it's pretty unlikely. If he is the son of Maria Josefa, then his mother is the youngest daughter of the elector. He'd have the elector of Saxony ahead of him if female line succession followed the same rules as male line primogeniture, and have the elector as competition in the event that it worked that all female-line claims were deemed equal. Friedrich II of Prussia got the Fürstenbund together to prevent a Habsburg takeover of Bavaria, it's unlikely he wouldn't here. Unless Austria goes to war against Prussia over Bavaria and France decides to join in (Austria tried to get France to sign on OTL, the French said no, and Louis XVI wasn't seen in a very favourable light in Vienna, while Antoinette was roundly chastised by her mother for not persuading her husband to sign on the dotted line).

As to names, what about Franz Philipp Josef Karl Ludwig Stanislaus (after his grandfathers, great-grandfathers, as in my TL)?
 
She would not be heiress of anything and of the wrong age for marrying almost anyone who mattered... maybe she would marry her cousin Francis II but she was six years older than him

I married her to the duke of Savoy since I didn't really know what to do with her. But a double Portuguese match for her and her brother - with José, prince of Beira and Maria Ana Vitoria of Portugal - could happen, I guess.
 
I married her to the duke of Savoy since I didn't really know what to do with her. But a double Portuguese match for her and her brother - with José, prince of Beira and Maria Ana Vitoria of Portugal - could happen, I guess.
Savoy also is an option, like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Augustus_I_of_Saxony and Josè of Portugal... For the boy Elisabeth of Württemberg is the most logical choice or her elder sister Friederike with Elisabeth marrying the Duke of Oldenburg (but considering the match will require a conversion and OTL Elisabeth fitted very well in Vienna better go with her) as their Russian connection will make them the most important alliance possible

Madame Elisabeth was proposed for the son of Joseph, not for him
 
Didn’t he marry in 1769, prior to the Archduchess’ death?

Charles Emmanuel IV?
I had not the date of that wedding so not Saxony unless a different system of alliance make him available (or Amalie die early maybe with one of her first two stillbirths) and at least I was thinking to Charles Emmanuel IV of Sardinia
 
Charles Emmanuel IV?

Yup. But I also sent his OTL wife off to a different husband (a surviving son of Karl Theodor). She [Clothilde] could just easily marry the elector of Saxony - he made a suit for her elder sister, Marie Zéphyrine OTL IIRC.

I had not the date of that wedding so not Saxony unless a different system of alliance make him available (or Amalie die early maybe with one of her first two stillbirths) and at least I was thinking to Charles Emmanuel IV of Sardinia

Do you have dates for those stillbirths? I've only ever seen the listing of her only child, Maria Auguste
 
Yup. But I also sent his OTL wife off to a different husband (a surviving son of Karl Theodor). She [Clothilde] could just easily marry the elector of Saxony - he made a suit for her elder sister, Marie Zéphyrine OTL IIRC.



Do you have dates for those stillbirths? I've only ever seen the listing of her only child, Maria Auguste
In his wiki page who I linked earlier. Here is the direct link

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Augustus_I_of_Saxony#Marriage_and_issue
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalie_of_Zweibrücken-Birkenfeld#Issue
 
Interesting stuff. So let’s say something happens to Maria Josepha like what happened to Isabella of Parma in 1763. Smallpox forces Maria Josepha into labor, except the child is full term. What happens? Would the child even be able to survive or would he have the disease as well. I’d also assume Maria Josepha dies.
 
Interesting stuff. So let’s say something happens to Maria Josepha like what happened to Isabella of Parma in 1763. Smallpox forces Maria Josepha into labor, except the child is full term. What happens? Would the child even be able to survive or would he have the disease as well. I’d also assume Maria Josepha dies.
You need first to force Joseph to consumate the wedding to Maria Josepha and this is unlikely... A son from Isabella is more likely and if we butterfly the death of Isabella and let her live longer more kids for Joseph are almost guaranteed
 
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