Sommerville and Fletcher.

Inspired by the debate about Singapore elsewhere, and working on the assumption that the Japanese success could burst at any seam from over-tasking. The IO raid ended on about April 10 and Coral Sea started on about May 4, the Eastern Fleet was covered the invasion of Madagascar on May 5. WI instead of covering this low value sideshow Sommerville conducted some offensive attacks against Japanese occupied facilities while the IJN was busy at Coral Sea? Would it help Fletcher for the Japanese to hear on the eve of Coral Sea that RN carriers are attacking at the other end of the theatre? Were there any juicy targets in the IO that Sommerville could destroy?
 

Redbeard

Banned
Inspired by the debate about Singapore elsewhere, and working on the assumption that the Japanese success could burst at any seam from over-tasking. The IO raid ended on about April 10 and Coral Sea started on about May 4, the Eastern Fleet was covered the invasion of Madagascar on May 5. WI instead of covering this low value sideshow Sommerville conducted some offensive attacks against Japanese occupied facilities while the IJN was busy at Coral Sea? Would it help Fletcher for the Japanese to hear on the eve of Coral Sea that RN carriers are attacking at the other end of the theatre? Were there any juicy targets in the IO that Sommerville could destroy?

The invasion of Madagascar was no sideshow - it was paramount for the allied presence in not only the IO (incl. India and SEA) but also North Africa (convoys went from UK round the Cape and up the Red Sea) that the Vichy controlled Madagascar did not turn into a Japanese base. In that context Coral Sea was just an undecided tactical sideshow!

Besides by spring 42 there really weren't any "juicy" Japanese targets in the area, apart from the main Japanese fleet itself (no production facilities or bases yet). Had the IJN however followed its own time schedule in April 42 (which was intercepted by Somerville's signal intelligence) it would have experienced a night strike from Somerville's radarguided torpedosquadrons, but as it went they were late and Somerville didn't dare stay in the area and wait and withdrew. Had the attack been executed any hit on a japanese ship would have been crippling, as repair facilities were thousands of miles away. If the IJN main fleet is much weakened already by April 42 I wonder what the Japanese will do - hesitate and loose the momentum or advance in weakened position and (seriously) risk anihilation?

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Madagascar wasn't nearly as important as Ceylon, and even if Vichy let the Japanese use it I doubt they would because it's so remote from their area of interest.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Madagascar wasn't nearly as important as Ceylon, and even if Vichy let the Japanese use it I doubt they would because it's so remote from their area of interest.

Madagascar - remote from their area of interest?!

Madagascar lies just perfect to interrupt the communcation between India and UK and between Northy Africa and UK. Ceylon would of course be a pain in the b... next to India (and a potential staging area for an invasion of India, but for that reason also more difficult to take and hold), but at least would not lie on the route to North Africa.

I don't know to what degree the Japanese had plans about Madagascar in OTL, but the from allied point of view they had the potential - and not reacting to that would be criminal neglect.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Markus

Banned
Would it help Fletcher for the Japanese to hear on the eve of Coral Sea that RN carriers are attacking at the other end of the theatre? Were there any juicy targets in the IO that Sommerville could destroy?

No, the IO is too far away, the invasion of Port Moresby had a very high priority and the IJN has four CVs "in reserve" in case something really goes wrong. Detaching one or two RN CVs to Flechter would help a lot more.
 
Redbeard, Japan's main enemy was the US, and their main target was South East Asia and in that scheme of things Madagascar was not important. Australia, New Guinea and the South Pacific Islands were important, hence the attention the Japanese lavished on them. Even the IO raid was pretty much a strategic dead end, justified only because of the sinking of a carrier and heavy cruisers for no loss. If Sommerville's forces had some success I think the IO raid would be considered a mistake.

Markus, I think sending the RN to the Pacific to fight in the Coral Sea would have been a good use for the RN carriers, far more worthy than Madagascar. But much like the Japanese in the IO, would the Brit govt want it's powerful fleet so far away when there was very important battlegrounds much closer to home at the time?

My real interest in this is that I can't believe that for the total RN contibition to the Pacific war up until 10 April 1942 was pre-ordained to lose 1/3 of this force for no result. I'm sure that this level of commitment and this level of loss could/should have inflicted similar amounts of damage on the IJN.
 

Markus

Banned
Markus, I think sending the RN to the Pacific to fight in the Coral Sea would have been a good use for the RN carriers, far more worthy than Madagascar. But much like the Japanese in the IO, would the Brit govt want it's powerful fleet so far away when there was very important battlegrounds much closer to home at the time?

Australia and NZ were a part of the Empire and had to be defended, especially since both send their best troops to help the UK in the Med. Not giving them a hand could have resulted in serious political trouble.

Ok, the RN CVs weren´t perfect by a long shot, but the Albacores had air-ground radar and were capable of flying night torpedo attacks, while the CVs themselfs were near invulnerable to the IJN´s dive bombers. Together with the Lex and Yorktown, they would have been a winning team.
 
Personally, I think that if Sommerville had to face the same forces as Fletcher; 2 large and 1 light carriers and 4 cruisers he could have probably duplicated or bettered Fletcher's result of sinking a light carrier in return for losing one of his own carriers and suffering serious damage to the other. Sommerville's problem of course was that he faced 5 large and 1 light carriers and 4 battleships. This is too much even for the combination of Force Z, the ABDA force beaten at Java Sea and Sommerville's fleet. I'm thinking of a TL where the RNs ships aren't defeated in detail over 3 engagements, but are concentrated for one or two.

What about Sommerville and Dolittle? There were no carriers to block Dolittle's run in because the were on their way back from running around the IO. WI, due to slightly different timings, Nagumo has to stop his shadow boxing with Sommerville to return to the Pacific?
 

Redbeard

Banned
Redbeard, Japan's main enemy was the US, and their main target was South East Asia and in that scheme of things Madagascar was not important. Australia, New Guinea and the South Pacific Islands were important, hence the attention the Japanese lavished on them. Even the IO raid was pretty much a strategic dead end, justified only because of the sinking of a carrier and heavy cruisers for no loss. If Sommerville's forces had some success I think the IO raid would be considered a mistake.

Markus, I think sending the RN to the Pacific to fight in the Coral Sea would have been a good use for the RN carriers, far more worthy than Madagascar. But much like the Japanese in the IO, would the Brit govt want it's powerful fleet so far away when there was very important battlegrounds much closer to home at the time?

My real interest in this is that I can't believe that for the total RN contibition to the Pacific war up until 10 April 1942 was pre-ordained to lose 1/3 of this force for no result. I'm sure that this level of commitment and this level of loss could/should have inflicted similar amounts of damage on the IJN.

We are talking about alternative options for the British in spring 42 and here you say the invasion of Madagascar was superflous. Seen from a British point of view the enemy taking possession of Madagascar would threaten their presence in both India and North Africa - IOW just about anywhere outside the British Isles! Even an American not fond of defending the British Empire could be interested in that happening - and anyway the USN during the war showed an increasing opposition to letting anyone into their Pacific War.

Seen from early 1942 it could in no way be excluded that the Axis would and could take possesion of Madagscar - and be welcomed by the Vichy French. That had happened in French Indochina, which was instrumental in the fall of Malaya and Singapore. Had Madgascar been Axis the allies of course would not have sit idle, but a few squadrons of modern fighters and a couple of infantry Brigades would make an invasion much more difficult and probbaly require US participation and/or postpone Torch/Husky and the great Pacific counter attack.

In contrast sending Somerville's fleet to join the USN at Coral Sea would at most "de-claw" the IJN three months ahead of schedule, but not speed up the build up of resources, men and equipment more determining for grand operations than the claws of the enemy. Judged from the co-operation problems of international naval forces in early Pacific war (ABDA) a combined US/British naval force might risk appear rather claw-less itself however.

Anyway, as soon as the IJN sight the British leaving the IO, that will of course change their operational opportunities - they can now operate in the IO without the assisstance of their main fleeet, and their main fleet have a chance to strike at both the USN and the RN main fleets in the Coral Sea area.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Madagascar was about as far from anywhere important as it was possible to be, and as hard for any Axis power to take as anywhere in the world. This makes it a sideshow for the British, a waste of naval resources at a crucial time in the war, not nearly a worthy target of one of the strongest fleets the British had gathered so far.
 
It was also a threat to convoy routes only slightly less vital to British interests than the Atlantic's. HMG could not afford to treat it as a sideshow. The trouble with this option is the widespread British needs to defend & the paucity of resources to do it with. Yeah, Somerville could've contributed to smashing Takagi at Coral Sea, at the risk of losing India, Egypt, the Suez, & Mideast oil...:eek::eek: not to mention his head.:eek:
 
From what I've read on other threads, HM's concerns were misplaced. Commerce raiding had little or no place the IJN's sub warfare doctrine. If the IJN had the same doctrine as the other combatants then Madagascar was a real concern. As it didn't then the island could have been left to rot on the vine. Mind you M could have been a base for German commerce raiders, but that's a reeal reach.
It was also a threat to convoy routes only slightly less vital to British interests than the Atlantic's. HMG could not afford to treat it as a sideshow. The trouble with this option is the widespread British needs to defend & the paucity of resources to do it with. Yeah, Somerville could've contributed to smashing Takagi at Coral Sea, at the risk of losing India, Egypt, the Suez, & Mideast oil...:eek::eek: not to mention his head.:eek:
 
Whatever threat M was, surely there wasn't enough force in the area to require a pair of modern carriers, the Warspite and other quality RN ships to capture it.
 
Commerce raiding had little or no place the IJN's sub warfare doctrine.
Correct. IJN clung to Mahan even after it had been hammered home his "decisive battle" idea wouldn't be in play.
Mind you M could have been a base for German commerce raiders, but that's a reeal reach.
It could have been a base for U-boats, which would have been an extreme hazard, to the Indian Ocean, Red Sea, &, most important, South Atlantic, from whence (for instance) Venezuelan oil, & (thanks to the short range of Type 7 boats) largely immune without bases close...:eek:
 
Australia and NZ were a part of the Empire and had to be defended, especially since both send their best troops to help the UK in the Med. Not giving them a hand could have resulted in serious political trouble

But, in OTL the UK wasn't able to give a hand to the SWPA or the significant Pacific islands including the New Hebrides the main foreward base for the reconquest of the British Solomans/containment of the IJN push from Rabaul. And there wasn't any political blowback. (Losing Singapore was a political gutting, though.)

Also, the British Indian ocean fleet of 1942, as a blue water fleet, isn't as impressive as the Pacific fleet of 1945, is it? Can they up anchors, pop over to Sydney, link up with Halsey or whoever, have a stoush, and get back to Ceylon in time for the late '42 campaigning season?

Also, didn't they spend time cowering off the cost of Kenya after the IJN had raided them?


PS: I just re-read Markus' response @ 7 (that I partly quote here) to Riain's response @ 6 and Riain seems to be discussing sending a fleet from the Home Islands (Scapa Flow?), not the Indian ocean, to the Coral Sea, and I think Markus is implying the Madagascar invasion was done to secure sealanes to Australia.
 
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Markus

Banned
I got no idea why they invaded M. It was as far away from anything important as you could get. And certainly absolutely out of reach of Japan. KB did not sail past Cylon and it´s quite a few miles from there to M. Assuming the RN sees it that way too, the RN is free to consider other operations like raiding japanese invasion forces in the vicinity of Australia.
 
Concur, as long as the ports were rendered useless to the Axis. A blockade of third rate vessels supported out of the British East Africa holdings would have sufficed.
Whatever threat M was, surely there wasn't enough force in the area to require a pair of modern carriers, the Warspite and other quality RN ships to capture it.
 
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