Somewhat ASB-ish: Angloes give French respect they deserve
- Thread starter Gladi
- Start date
Kabraloth said:
No, most of the British public were with the French on the Iraq War. The emnity goes back about 700 years, ever since the '100 Years War' between England and France and has been through stages of outright hostility and immature humour ever since. We jump at every opportunity to make the French look bad because...well...they're the French, it's not like they've liked us much throughout history either. It's gone through propogandist posturing and has now morphed into an almost pleasant wordplay between the two peoples. We just like poking fun at each other because we seem to be such easy targets to each other. Like school kids whose friendship is based on how much they used to taunt each other. England's the dour, uptight, officious one and France is the wild, eccentric, extroverted one.
America's emnity with France is a lot more recent and so, so much more bitter. We poke fun at the French out of a need to laugh at someone silly. It's a knee-jerk in-built xenophobia that's directed almost as much at ourselves as at the French. America pokes fun at the French out of a focused, calculated hatred of the French, with no corresponding look at oneself whatsoever. There's no geographical proximity to produce any kind of back-and-forth dialogue, only a sense of a distant 'enemy' out of sight and out of mind except as a horrifying charicature.
...oh lordy, just...forget what I just said. I sound like an idiot...
One of the mysteries of history - France has had two archenemies for centuries (in one case for a millenium) and yet the noisiest and most childish of insults come from the people which historically have the French much to thank for.
That said, I agree with your post. But you have to agree that most of the noise nowadays comes from the US of A, so if I misunderstood the initial post, I apologize.
That said, I agree with your post. But you have to agree that most of the noise nowadays comes from the US of A, so if I misunderstood the initial post, I apologize.
Glen
Moderator
Rasputin said:
Well, we've been poking fun at the French as long as I can remember. And I don't think most Americans are really bitter at France. That would imply a lot more thought about France than most Americans would actually spend.
Again, I think you overstate the situation. Most Americans don't hate the French. And in fact, applying 'focused' and 'calculated' to the American public in general gives us a coherence that we just do not possess as a people.
Now this bit is spot on! American jibes at the French are done with no introspection or reflection at all, IMO.
Enemy? We haven't fought the French since the French and Indian War (if you want to count colonial periods). I think the Americans who think poorly of the French think of them more as irritating than anything else. Quite frankly, I suspect most Americans, rightly or wrongly, don't take the French seriously at all. We are awefully self-absorbed, you know.
That might be best...
Leej said:
Well bloody said!
I think its just rivalry and a public conception of how WW2 went etc we stood alone, they gave in well theres the french for you....
The only possible POD for Anglo respect of the French is for them to win a war against us.
The only war after the reconquest of Northern France that the French have won agaisnt the UK was the War of American Independance and then they had the Yanks do most of the fighting.
We take the piss out of the Germans but we resepct them, after all they nearly beat us, twice! The French got whupped in the Napoleonic Wars (in the end), in the Seven Years war, in the war of Austrian Succession, in the war of Spanish Succession etc.
Even when they were our allies they were pretty useless and needed us to save them, Crimea, WW1 (yes I know they fought well and for a long time but we rememeber the mutiny's not the brave fighting before). WW2 (Batle of France anyone??).
We simply have no respect for them and thus our jokes are that much harsher. Also we are pissed off by the way that they have seduced us into the EU and are now hellbent on wrecking our (successful) economy, and they way they presume to lecture us and foist their haute culture and smelly armpits on us. All in all we have a lot bile aimed at them and no respect thus we are harsh, but they deserve it.
The only war after the reconquest of Northern France that the French have won agaisnt the UK was the War of American Independance and then they had the Yanks do most of the fighting.
We take the piss out of the Germans but we resepct them, after all they nearly beat us, twice! The French got whupped in the Napoleonic Wars (in the end), in the Seven Years war, in the war of Austrian Succession, in the war of Spanish Succession etc.
Even when they were our allies they were pretty useless and needed us to save them, Crimea, WW1 (yes I know they fought well and for a long time but we rememeber the mutiny's not the brave fighting before). WW2 (Batle of France anyone??).
We simply have no respect for them and thus our jokes are that much harsher. Also we are pissed off by the way that they have seduced us into the EU and are now hellbent on wrecking our (successful) economy, and they way they presume to lecture us and foist their haute culture and smelly armpits on us. All in all we have a lot bile aimed at them and no respect thus we are harsh, but they deserve it.
Ah, how typically "splendid isolation".
Insult the French which tend to take the brunt, because they don't have the convenience of a channel between themself and the rest of Europe. I honestly wonder if the British could have fought WW1 and WW2 if they were on the continent instead of their cozy island fortress.
Insult the French which tend to take the brunt, because they don't have the convenience of a channel between themself and the rest of Europe. I honestly wonder if the British could have fought WW1 and WW2 if they were on the continent instead of their cozy island fortress.
Gladi said:Bright day
What is it even with all those jokes?
Is it about Nazi invasion or what?
A few reasons:
1. Britain and France were enemies for centuries. Doesn't exactly engender mutual respect.
2. After around 1800 or so, France had a fairly lousy record at war. They lost, badly, to the Prussians in 1870, were swiftly defeated by Germany in 1940, lost in Algeria and Indochina (although the latter is more understandable given the US did little better there), and only held during World War I by the skin of their teeth and substantial British and later US assistance. Napoleon had many victories, but was eventually beaten (twice) by an alliance headed by Britain. France also has historically had a less stable government than most of the big empires (Britain and the US have both had essentially the same governmental system for the past two hundred years; France has had two empires, a conventional monarchy, and four republics (five if you count Vichy). Compare that to Britain having nearly 3 centuries under the house of Hanover aka Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, or a US whose government still largely follows a constitution drawn up in 1787, with only a handful of violent secessionist movements and no successful coups). These lead to a perception of weakness.
3. Arrogance is a common feature of French, British, and American culture (although British arrogance has faded in the post-colonial world. That, perhaps, influences opinion on France - they lack a big empire and are still arrogant. The US still has an 'empire' of sorts to be arrogant about.). The arrogance is perceived by the opposing party, often feeding more arrogance.
Thande
Donor
One must bear in mind, as several 19th century satirists pointed out, one of the reasons for the English/French enmity is that the two nations are so alike, particularly when it comes to arrogance towards foreigners.
I think there was considerable respect for the French during the Napoleonic Wars, when they were the enemy (and considered a worthy enemy), but less so in the World Wars when we were forced to work together and tended to be abrasive (never mind all the WW1 mutinies and the perceived Vichy betrayal that Arachnid mentioned).
I must say that I am rather offended by this thread title, and I hope it was not intentional: I dislike the fact that a lot of continental Europeans these days seem to lump the USA in with Britain and refer to both of them as 'Anglo-Saxons'. There is a world of difference between the two countries' attitudes, they are emphatically not made up of a single Anglo-Saxon culture or race (although there are doubtless those that wish they were ), and furthermore it excludes the Celtic peoples of Britain.
Not unlike referring to everyone in Europe as "Romans" for all the relevance it has.
I think there was considerable respect for the French during the Napoleonic Wars, when they were the enemy (and considered a worthy enemy), but less so in the World Wars when we were forced to work together and tended to be abrasive (never mind all the WW1 mutinies and the perceived Vichy betrayal that Arachnid mentioned).
I must say that I am rather offended by this thread title, and I hope it was not intentional: I dislike the fact that a lot of continental Europeans these days seem to lump the USA in with Britain and refer to both of them as 'Anglo-Saxons'. There is a world of difference between the two countries' attitudes, they are emphatically not made up of a single Anglo-Saxon culture or race (although there are doubtless those that wish they were
), and furthermore it excludes the Celtic peoples of Britain. Not unlike referring to everyone in Europe as "Romans" for all the relevance it has.
Aracnid said:
The French sent thee majority of the forces involved and we didn't save them (although there leadership cocked things up a great deal and they were about as faithful allies as the Yanks were during WW2 which meant they screwed us over as much as possible without losing the war).
Their veto kept us out for over a decade, they didn't seduce us in any fashion.
So they are losers because they lost to Nazi in 1940's? Who didn't? Some could say that Brits very quickly went to hide behind the channel. So they lost Indochina- so did USA and China... And AFAIK their army pretty much won Algeria?
Napoleonic wars- well you know why they take whole pack of dogs when you go bear hunting, right?
And WWI mutinies? Why, I too would refuse to walk into constant barrage of machine gun fire and artilery shell, while Brits keep most of their army back home.
Thande- well we are not of single stock when you look at Continent. There are Romans and Germanics and Slavs and Greeks. Though I would not be insulted by being called Roman. And by celtic people... you mean that 5k in Wales and 20k in Scotland?
EDIT: Oh and every empire had its arrogance some just had it beaten out of them.
Napoleonic wars- well you know why they take whole pack of dogs when you go bear hunting, right?
And WWI mutinies? Why, I too would refuse to walk into constant barrage of machine gun fire and artilery shell, while Brits keep most of their army back home.
Thande- well we are not of single stock when you look at Continent. There are Romans and Germanics and Slavs and Greeks. Though I would not be insulted by being called Roman. And by celtic people... you mean that 5k in Wales and 20k in Scotland
?EDIT: Oh and every empire had its arrogance some just had it beaten out of them.
Waitaminute.
Why do other countries get to bash america, and then say that they don't hate america, just its leadership? But when we bash france, we hate the entire country?
I think we have to remember that a large portion of the United States has some french blood in them. We have nothing against the French people, just as they have nothing against us. Its the French government, and its passive agressive policies opposed to ours that many in America don't like.
Why do other countries get to bash america, and then say that they don't hate america, just its leadership? But when we bash france, we hate the entire country?
I think we have to remember that a large portion of the United States has some french blood in them. We have nothing against the French people, just as they have nothing against us. Its the French government, and its passive agressive policies opposed to ours that many in America don't like.