Someone other than Alexander invades Persia

I'd have to agree with you, Daeres. I think the near eastern nation are 'way cool', but by the time of Alexander they've passed the point where they could rise again as powerhouses. Egypt's past her time too. We'd need a new, dynamic state that could come and swallow up most of the Persian empire. Arabia is out of the picture as the sort of dynamic expansion outwards was only allowed because of the 6th century population boom. Hmm.

Perhaps a dog-pile of nomads is needed. The Dahae flood into Hyrcania and Media, the Saka through Afghanistan, the Scythians through the Caucasus. The issue is that it's doubtful they would go farther than the Iranian plateau; such a push is beyond the momentum of any tribe at this time.


Your scenario of a rebel conquering Persia could pretty easily be accomplished. It would be interesting to see an Egyptian carving out part of the Empire for himself or something akin to it.

The epic logistics for such a thing are probably beyond the resources of an Egyptian state barring some insane revival that probably bends general logic.
 
I agree that the only external forces other than the Greeks likely to mess up the Achaemenids are Nomads. Scythians seem like a good candidate to me, though at least part of them were subjugated by the Achaemenids and served in their armies. I think the Yuezhi turning up might prove interesting, although I doubt the Yuezhi have either the numbers or the interest to try to go deep into Persian territory.

I think that the likeliest way to have the Empire carved up by Nomads is if the successful incursions of one group inspire others to join in. Essentially, if something encourages all of the nomads on Persia's borders to dogpile.

I also thought that someone might rebel within the Empire, not to instantly take it over but forming a core state that might expand outwards. Not to be a killjoy but Assyrian culture as a dynamic entity was basically done by this point, and Babylonian culture was not far behind either. Now that I think about it, I'm having trouble thinking of cultures within the Empire with enough drive to get into Near Eastern Empire Mode (tm).

Your scenario of a rebel conquering Persia could pretty easily be accomplished. It would be interesting to see an Egyptian carving out part of the Empire for himself or something akin to it.
 

Ceranthor

Banned
My money is on an Indian power. Mahapadma Nanda, the founder of the Nanda Dynasty, was reputedly known as a "destroyer of the Kshatriyas", meaning he probably was a damn good soldier; if circumstances prevent him from operating in the subcontinent, then he might be forced to campaign westwards, which would bring him in direct conflict with the Achaemenids(this would have to happen around 400/390 B.C, when Nanda was in his prime). Now if you coupled this with a revolt in Egypt(god knows how that would happen) and some zerg rush of Scythians/Saka/what-have-you, then the Achaemenids would most likely get their asses handed to them. The butterflies of this would be pretty interesting as well; OTL very few Indian powers have expanded beyond Afghanistan at the very most, so this would produce a noticeable change in the mindset and goals of later Indian rulers.
 

OS fan

Banned
Long before Alexander invaded Persia, the Greek culture had started to spread its influence through the Persian Empire. Do you think Alexander would have had a chance, even a slight one, of he had to fight the new Persian Empire under Ardashir and Shapur?
 
Philip II as he was the one that ordered the invasion in the first place and was as capable a tactician as his son was. Philip II arguably would not have been so foolish as to engage in the Battle of the Hyaspedes for the LOLZ so his regime might have actually endured as a single stable kingdom for a generation or two instead of Alexander Caunocataurius the Egotist taking daddy's army and using daddy's invasion as his springboard to glory.
 
Agisilaus,king of Sparta,had already invaded Ionia and the Persians,unable to face him in open battle send money to Greece for bribes and incitement of the important states against Sparta. Agisilaus had to return to Greece
to defeat the united Greeks in the battle of Coronea.
Before him,someone better than Alexander,Alkiviades, persuaded the Athenians to attack Sparta in its line of communications in Sicily;this indirect strategic movement was 'discovered' in Europe some 20 centuries later by Napoleon;Alkiviades' Ionian War is probably text book strategy for today's commanders.
The greatest Greek general,according to Cicero was another capable man to destroy the Persians;his 'oblique' phalanx and its variations,have been followed from famous generals throughout the ages from a person not less than Scipio Africanus to J.L. Chamberlain in Five Forks
Anyone of them could have wrecked Persia although I would advise Alkiviades who had the backing of the Athenian Empire(so long as he took care of his opponents in Athens by leaving behind a watch dog) and having conquered Sicily.
And last but not least Cimon himself who also stood in high esteem in Sparta.
 
There was a Turtledove short story (can't think of the name) in which the Sicilian Expedition succeeded, Alcibiades dramatically raided Sparta on his way home, and Athens decisively won the Peloponnesian War. As a result, Alcibiades became the popular ruler of an Athenian hegemony over all of Greece and even Macedon. Socrates lives longer and Western thought is forever changed. The story ended with Alcibiades launching a campaign to conquer Persia.

Any ideas how that would go?
 
I agree that the only external forces other than the Greeks likely to mess up the Achaemenids are Nomads. Scythians seem like a good candidate to me, though at least part of them were subjugated by the Achaemenids and served in their armies. I think the Yuezhi turning up might prove interesting, although I doubt the Yuezhi have either the numbers or the interest to try to go deep into Persian territory.

I think that the likeliest way to have the Empire carved up by Nomads is if the successful incursions of one group inspire others to join in. Essentially, if something encourages all of the nomads on Persia's borders to dogpile.

I also thought that someone might rebel within the Empire, not to instantly take it over but forming a core state that might expand outwards. Not to be a killjoy but Assyrian culture as a dynamic entity was basically done by this point, and Babylonian culture was not far behind either. Now that I think about it, I'm having trouble thinking of cultures within the Empire with enough drive to get into Near Eastern Empire Mode (tm).
The nomads were good for raids only;they were not advanced enough to plan an organised campaign with certain aims that would be achieved in any length of time,conquer,maintain the status quo and govern a conquered empire.
 
There was a Turtledove short story (can't think of the name) in which the Sicilian Expedition succeeded, Alcibiades dramatically raided Sparta on his way home, and Athens decisively won the Peloponnesian War. As a result, Alcibiades became the popular ruler of an Athenian hegemony over all of Greece and even Macedon. Socrates lives longer and Western thought is forever changed. The story ended with Alcibiades launching a campaign to conquer Persia.

Any ideas how that would go?
My thoughts entirely;in fact Alcibiades doesn't have to subdue Macedon,it would develop in parallel and it has the entire north to deal with,until Alexander turns against the west...and there becomes Rome a...parking lot,and Carthage a heap of ruins....
 
Long before Alexander invaded Persia, the Greek culture had started to spread its influence through the Persian Empire. Do you think Alexander would have had a chance, even a slight one, of he had to fight the new Persian Empire under Ardashir and Shapur?
Different time and it would have met an advanced Alexander;then both these Persians wouldn't have had a chance...
 
It ceased to be a threat after Cimon beat them in 467 BC. After that they were content to simply play the Greeks off against each other.
Not exactly in 467,but later after the recall of Cimon and the Athenian Cyprus campaign where the Phoenician fleet suffered such anihilating defeats that disappeared from the annals of history.
 
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